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00:00:00,000 [Music] I am welcome to the Sunday Lunch Project Podcast episode for 00:00:18,000 the 29th of February, 2020. This is your host Nigel Creaser.
And this month, the Sunday Lunch Project Manager meets Emily Lubrecht, M. the PM. But first I want to talk chat to you about sponsorship. [Music]
00:00:36,000 So this month we don’t have an explicit sponsor. And I’m not using it to
throw all my various different books and things like that that I’ve been trying to do to promote those. I just want to chat to you about the opportunity of sponsorship.
00:00:54,000 We have a really engaged in good audience that are specifically
interested in project management. If you have a product or you know of
an organization that has a product that is targeted towards that project management community, I feel that we’ve got a really compelling
offering here because I don’t think we’ve got people who aren’t project managers listening to this.
00:01:16,000 Or my way, the odd one. If you’re interested, please drop me an email at SundayLunchPMPod@nigelcreaser.com. There’s varying different
offerings at very different points within the podcast that I’m willing to offer.
00:01:32,000 And we can have a chat about it. So on with the news. [Music] 00:01:40,000
Usually update on things going on and stuff to do with the podcast. Well
for me I’ve been still rattling away trying to do my little novel. But I keep
getting diverted to other different projects. Which is fine. I heard something the other day around.
00:01:58,000 I think it was an author who had done multiple different things and he
kind of treated them as lightning rods and said, “Well I’ll do that and I’ll
start it and I’ll get that going and if it comes to something great and if it
doesn’t, it doesn’t and I’ve kind of got a bit of that going on as a mentality at the moment.
00:02:16,000 So if I feel like doing something I can go and do it because the thing he said there was where something can sometimes feel a bit weary and
you get worn down by it and you just try and trudge through. If you’ve
got something else that you can switch to and it’ll spark your interest
back up for the other thing by having a rest and a refresh. And I think that kind of works, which really works for me.
00:02:38,000 With the podcast I have had a couple of full interview schedule this month and because of a number of different circumstances that’s
inspired against it, I meant that I’ve had to reschedule. I’m scheduled
for next week and the other I’ve got to after this recording I need to sort
out the slots to have a chat with the person who I had to cancel on last night unfortunately.
00:03:02,000 So one of done that, that will wrap up all of the Sunday lunch interviews
and all of the Sunday Saturday brunch interviews for this quarter and a
little bit into next. I’ve had quite a few yeses and a few inquiries from
lots of other people so I can schedule them in. So just as a highlight of next week, we next month in the Saturday brunch project, Saturday brunch interviews.
00:03:28,000 I’ve got an interview with Ricardo Vargas, the director of the PMI’s
Brightline initiative and talking exactly about that. That’s in the bag and ready to go. And the second one is a good friend of mine Gordon
McKelle, who is the factory builder and I’m really excited to chat to Gordon about some details about how he got into project management.
00:03:51,000 And at that point of view from building factory says my emphasis has always been on the IT side and less on that nature of project. In
personal stuff, my day job has been pretty full on, I’ve been a bit naked
to be honest. So doing other things has kind of been a little bit, it mess hence the reason I’ve been diverted by stuff with also in half to
birthdays, Valentine’s day obviously sifting through millions of cards and I have to do.
00:04:23,000 And the battering the storms that have been given us in the UK, it’s
made the month seem to fly by and I was kind of like, I know for weeks or short months, but it still always seems to fly by. I’ve had an
interesting thing in camp in this last week as well. I’ve got a kind of invite from someone to join the new hashtag PM tribe website that’s starting out.
00:04:48,000 I really intrigued to find out what’s going on there if you’re interested in that just search hashtag PM tribe on the usual search engines and
stuff. I’m sure you’ll find some details on that. And I’ve spread the last
thing that’s been jittering around a little bit is I mean seen that PMI are asking for speakers out there PMI Ted talk in October.
00:05:14,000 And I have an idea and I’m toying with pitching for a spot and then
arguing with myself saying what have I got to say. And so as few things
holding me back a little bit of imposter syndrome there. But let’s see I’ll
see what happens over the next week or two I think it’s before the cut off next week sometime.
00:05:36,000 But actually if you don’t know what that’s about search for the PMI Ted
talk online the PMI are opening. I think it’s 15 speakers they’re looking to have next at the end of October this year in a Ted. A combined
partner in with Ted I think on that door it’s their talks of being run so
fantastic opportunity and if you’ve got something to say and it’s not they’re not looking for the usual run on the mill.
00:06:05,000 Kind of talks so if you’ve got something a little bit out of ordinary then it
might be interesting. So I think that’s probably enough from me let’s get
on with the interview with Emory the Brex speech a little. So today I’d like to welcome Emily Leurebreex PMP. M the PM is a project manager
and scrum master who is excelled working virtually and with a variety of different cultures.
00:06:38,000 And has been working project management for over 10 years holding a
variety of different positions is developed a detailed understanding what
it takes to be part of a successful project. And what to do when it gets
into trouble she excels working with international organizations and
projects and thrives on the diversity that they bring specializing in the people in the project working to empower the people with knowledge and best practice through mentoring and webinars and presentations.
Whilst working in Europe she’s been working on developing training for
working with different cultures and empowering different project teams.
00:07:12,000 She’s a regular volunteer with the PMI and has presented webinars on a variety of different topics including how to manage virtual teams
transitioning into working at Jarl and working with more more recently on culture. Welcome to the show M the PM. Thank you very much it’s wonderful to be here.
00:07:31,000 So I’ve sent across a list of questions and actually you’re the first person who’s pinged back answers to them on the email so I’m trying not to I’m trying to get the surprise of them without reading them
because I like to be surprised like the listeners as well but I won’t be
able to do that. So let’s start with where you were born. Well, I you
probably can’t tell it from my last name but I’m actually British so I am
just out I was born outside of London in the south of the UK and I grew up there.
00:08:03,000 Yeah for most of my life. All right so where are you living now then? Oh
I took a bit of a ping pong route across Europe so I am now living in
Brayda which is in the Netherlands but I first started out in Germany in 2006 and then I went to Belgium.
00:08:21,000 And then I’ve now come up to to the Netherlands so I’m kind of pinged me a ping ponging my way across Europe on a bit of a tour. And yeah
exactly you know living in different countries experiencing different
cultures it’s a wonderful place to be. And what about family wise have you got family and pinging around Europe with you as well?
00:08:45,000 Yeah well I actually came to the Netherlands for my husband who’s Dutch and you can tell by my you know unpronounceable last name. Thank you for the coaching on that by the way. Oh you’re welcome. Don’t worry Dutch people can’t pronounce it either.
00:09:00,000 I’ve got two kids one baby that was born in August 2019 so very very
young and I’ve also got two very active Siberian Huskies. Normally if
I’m not with the kids I’m with the dogs to make sure that they’re getting
enough exercise or you know not destroying the house. It sounds like you’ve got your handful there as well as having a project as a.
00:09:23,000 There you know my dogs are my stress relief so if I need to go out if I’m
having a bad day in the office or I’m having a difficulty with a project I just got with the dogs for a couple of hours and then you know
something settles in my head and it’s all okay. That’s the idea. There was a few years ago now I had a had a scenario where we’re on a project and it just seemed to get in the habit where the team would come to me to start talking to me about a problem and they’d start
talking to me and then after about 15 seconds of explaining the problem
they’d walk away and it’s all right I’ve sorted it. I know what I’ve got to do.
00:09:58,000 I resolve to the point where I draw a dog on the board and so you might
as useful as talking to me you might as well talk to the project dogs I
always think every project need if you’re if you’re as a PM you can be the project dog which is the sound board for people to kind of talk
through their problems and actually eventually when they’re explaining
to me as a dummy they’ve usually got to end of it and found a solution.
Well I like to consider myself like a project counselor you know do come
to you with the issues and the problems and you just try and work your
best to be able to support them into finding a solution. And if it’s being a
sounding board or if it’s kind of you know spitting across a few ideas you know that’s great as well.
00:10:36,000 Yeah because most of the time the people there and who come to me I sit there thinking you guys know more than me. Way more than me. Yeah especially some of the architect you guys so you’re over there
with the founding now so what you said you kind of grew up in London to where whereabouts where is it you grew up and.
00:10:57,000 Yeah I grew up yeah I grew up in a very very small village it’s about 15 minutes from Heathrow which makes you think it’s not going to be a
small little village but it really really is. And the gorgeous places around
that area isn’t it? It’s you know they call it you know the garden of
England and it really is it’s you know you can be within five ten minutes you can be out in the country and even though you see planes going
above your head you’re completely isolated and alone it’s really really beautiful. I was down there recently and I was near near fleet and
there’s a village near fleet that I know it’s kind of maybe it was a little bit further along but.
00:11:41,000 You’re kind of got following this diversion and tried as they ever trying to get find my way around it instead of using the satnav I ignored the
satnav because they were taking me to a queue. So I managed to drive
her and I was kind of just driving to this little village and there’s a the
cricketers arms and this cricket pitch that looked like it was just like the
the stereotypical English countryside image. Yeah and and I’m a clarinet
one pulling into the car park by it which kind of changed it a little bit but it was kind of yeah it was.
00:12:11,000 It was an interesting interesting drive there at that time. So where I
where I grew up is actually it’s only about five minutes drive from the McLaren F1 center. Right. Yeah.
00:12:23,000 So when when they won the F1 and they actually brought the the racing
car through through the streets. So it came and it came past and there
was crowds it was it was absolutely all of the roads around it was jam
packed. But it was beautiful to be able to see is just a racing car you know you know in real life.
00:12:41,000 Was it driving on the road or was it no no it was on the back of a back
of a kind of a lorry. Yeah I was going to say because one of those going over speed bumps or Andy here is probably struggling with the problems. Yeah exactly.
00:12:55,000 So when you were growing up in this idyllic countryside what is it you
wanted to be were you destined to be a project manager at that time?
Do you know what when I think back on it I always think yes but at the
time I didn’t even realise it. You know I was one of those people at
school I loved organizing I was always the one organizing events taking part in fundraising you know coordinating people.
00:13:21,000 But I just never really knew what it was and I always knew that I wanted
to help people. So you know the earliest thoughts I thought I could be a teacher you know I want to you know teach people things. And then
you know I just started to kind of get you know more and more into the
organizational aspects through you know through college and you know my you know the work I was doing.
00:13:43,000 And I just wanted to see where I could maybe help others as well as do
things I enjoy. And that’s one thing my parents really instilled into me this you know you can get whatever degree you want but you need to enjoy whatever you’re doing. So you need to be doing something in
your career that you love because it’s never then going to be work you know it’s never going to be like oh I’ve got to kind of work today.
00:14:05,000 It’s going to be all great I get to go to work today because I’m doing a
job that I enjoy and I love. And I can say that for projects and I know that sometimes I get I rate and sometimes I get super stressed. But
generally I love projects I love working in project management I love working with the teams I work with and they motivate me every day.
00:14:26,000 And that’s kind of all stemming back to just doing something that you love and doing something you enjoy as well as you know having and
using some of the skills that that we’ve all got. So with the office of those skills there and you mentioned at college and I was your
education level of education did you do. Yeah I’ve got a BA from the Royal Holloway University of London which is in EGUM which is in sorry but you’re not going to believe my degree are you ready.
00:14:59,000 Go on then. I have a joint honours in German and history. How far away 00:15:09,000 from project management can you get.
But it kind of reflects on what you’re traveling around Europe then.
Yeah. And it was actually I fell into the most advantageous bit of luck ever because as part of my degree you do a year abroad.
00:15:26,000 And I submitted an application to do an internship at master so which is the car company you know zoom zoom zoom. And I was working in their PMO. So I was helping them and I was helping you know learn what is a PMO how does it work.
00:15:45,000 You know supporting project managers and I really got my hands so
incredibly dirty with everything project related. And I loved it. I could not wait you know I actually spent you know you normally miss spend about a minimum of eight months there. I spent 14.
00:16:05,000 Because I literally I think I I left on the 31st of August and I started
university back on the fourth. That and I was really cutting it fine and
then I finished university you know within eight months and then I went
straight back out to Germany. Straight back out to master and straight back into the job that I was doing.
00:16:25,000 And I was you know working in corporate planning at that point but it
was still within the PMO it was still working with the same teams. And
you know I really found my calling in a great team with a great boss
who really kind of mentored me along the way to kind of how. And I had
to be a project had to be a proper manager but also how to be a good project manager.
00:16:45,000 And you know that’s where the kind of the seedlings started and were
blooming. And I suddenly realized that this would be something that I
could actually do for the next you know 30 40 years of my career and
not get bored of it. Oh excellent. So you’re very very fortunate then to find that even before you started your career really didn’t you?
00:17:05,000 Many of us because a lot of people have talked to they’ve kind of gone
through a number of sort of circular routes to get to that point and then
end up doing the project management side. Yeah. Because I see that a
lot with people like coach and with people I’m talking to is they come into project management maybe they were an engineer first or maybe they were working in another completely different industry.
00:17:32,000 And they kind of fell into projects by accident because maybe their organization wanted them to or their boss wanted them to. And you know so they kind of they don’t maybe love projects they love a
different part of you know of the job. And they just kind of do projects because it has to be done.
00:17:51,000 And I see a lot of people kind of struggling with that kind of dilemma
and struggling with that you know with that input. Okay so obviously you you moved through the PMO doing that work what what made you decide the project management was what you wanted to do. I think it was you know seeing the outcome seeing what happened seeing a project live.
00:18:18,000 And you know everything around a project and this is going to sound
really stupid. I like the fact that it had a start and an end date. I just like
that I like the fact that I could be a part of something where when we were talking through it when we were you know making we were improving something we were making things better with the project
itself. It wasn’t that we were doing something just for the sake of doing it.
00:18:42,000 We were you know implementing processes that were make people’s
lives easier. It would be implementing software that would save people
time and again it goes back to wanting to help people. So all of the
projects I was working with it would be I’m doing something that can help others as well as you know making things better for the organization or for the wider community.
00:19:05,000 And that’s kind of one of the main motivations for me when I’m working in projects or when I’m working you know in the in the volunteering sector. I’m helping people out but then also you know seeing the benefits of what a project can bring. And of course you know within
projects you’re organizing you’re using so many different skills soft skills.
00:19:25,000 It’s just you know it’s a big mess of different skills and different
functionalities that you can use and I love it. Yeah I agree is that that.
And I was having this conversation this morning today and I’ve added a
couple of times on the podcast so repeat myself a little bit but okay it’s my podcast.
00:19:45,000 It’s kind of that that scenario of you can a lot of the teaching and
training within project management focuses on the tools and not not on
the way you use the tool. So you can you you get the basics of how to use Microsoft project or how to create a plan or whatever or risk
register. But then that’s only part way there from the whole project delivery and making a successful project just because you have plan
just because you have a risk register just because you have this that
the other is in there and you’ve got all the templates are coming out of your ears.
00:20:16,000 Doesn’t mean you’re going to succeed without that that soft people side
of relationships because and I saw something short is Elizabeth harry
was putting something out the other day and just does some logos on. And I’ll Facebook and ask an opinions around the fact that projects
don’t get done people do projects and I think it’s really true it’s a really
true thing that without the people there nothing will get done regardless
of how good your processes and governance are and Colin Alice in his
book project books talks about it as well around the fact that you can put as much governance a stronger governance as you want but if you
haven’t got the people in the culture and the leadership in there. The governance is an issue irrelevant really unless you’ve got those
relationships see this is one thing that I’ve got a soap box for me.
00:21:10,000 This is one of the things I often see and it’s it’s going to sound awful
and it’s going to sound a bit show vanistic but I have to sometimes take
a lot of junior project managers down a peg or two because they come in maybe getting their PMP or you know having maybe a two day
training in prince to thinking that now I’ve got the certifications and I
know how to leave this. And I can do it better than you because you did
the training you know 10 years ago or something like that and I kind of
have to say to them yeah but I appreciate the fact that you’ve got the
certification I appreciate the fact that you’ve gone on this course but you
haven’t got your gut feeling yet. You haven’t got the that feeling in the pit of your stomach when you know something is good or you know
something’s bad and you can only get that with experience and I really
you know it’s really something I try and get across to them that you know you can.
00:21:58,000 You can take on all of the courses in the world but unless you actually
get that real life experience you know that’s going to make that’s the make going to make the difference between. You know a good project
manager and a failing project manager. Yeah and you’ve got to focus on
that and you and I think it’s it’s it’s very important to make that clear to people right you’ve taken the first step.
00:22:23,000 And that right you’ve got to set skills that you’ve come in with and some
of those skills might be those gut feels they may have had direct reports
doing other things or something like that but that is okay so I think it
feels like that constant learning thing doesn’t it. Yeah. Always been in a position to thinking on am I right and am I wrong exactly.
00:22:41,000 I do that better what’s the relationship with this person and and I I cite
the manager tools couple of guys in the state who have a podcast that I
listen to for I don’t know how long now and they always talk it’s all about the relationships. Yeah. Full stop management whether it’s managing your your your people you’re working for whether your customers
whether it’s your team whether it’s the pipe whatever it is it’s all about.
00:23:10,000 Having a relationship with those people exactly people do things for
people they don’t do things for for organizations exactly and this is
something that I provide myself one in my projects is I build a team and
I will go to hell and back for that team. I will quite happily you know go
through fire for them I will defend them to the help with stakeholders and you know I expect that sort of respect back from my team and that’s why you know I can deliver success. I can deliver successful
projects because I spend that time working you know going through the whole storming norming performing phase but actually just spending time with them understanding them as people before we understand them as resources and you know that’s what’s made me turn around projects that’s what made has made me.
00:23:57,000 You know the project manager I am today because I just focus on the
people and I look at them for who they are and you know then I look at
them for what skills they can bring to the project and what they can do.
And you know I think it’s it’s really kind of put me in good stead and it’s
really actually set me apart both positively negatively against some of my peers. Because you know sometimes they say oh you know she’s
all the fluff and you know she’s just spending too much time getting to know them you know and getting to know you know what they’re doing outside of work or you know what motivates them in their job rather than actually saying okay now we need to get down and deliver black white you know very stern.
00:24:35,000 And that I think that comes down to style and management style
generally because in general there are some managers that do do that and some don’t but I do think you do need to you need to have an
understanding of your people to be able to understand to understand. Understand a rounded view of the people to understand how they’re behaving and how you could better work with them. Exactly.
00:24:58,000 So you’ve worked in you mentioned Mazda there obviously in the automotive industry so what are the industries you’ve been involved
with. Oh I like to get around a bit so. I gathered that from your trip to Europe so.
00:25:12,000 I love traveling so I’ve done you know it’s mainly been around IT but it’s also been a pharmaceutical accounting and most recently I’m working
at Siemens so it’s engineering in a very very strong STEM environment. So you know I am the only female project manager in my group which
isn’t you know it’s I’m trying to kind of build that up to get more females
in the team but it’s you know it’s kind of the case and point for the STEM environment there are very very few women especially few
women in management so it’s just trying to kind of break break the the stages quo so to say. How do you find that that scenario.
00:25:57,000 Do you know I’m a bit I’m a bit of a lobbyist when it comes to it most recently I’ve written an article for. C.I.D.M. which is information management and it’s all about how to how you know how women in STEM can succeed so I interviews three very very successful women all kind of doing different areas of STEM. And just asking them you know how do they how are they a success what makes them a success
and you know really kind of getting into grips of you know the problems
that they’ve experienced how they kind of motivated that how they got through that and what they can kind of suggest other people.
00:26:39,000 And you know I have been in the discussions where you know because I’m a woman I’m instantly discounted or you know I’m only looked at
because I have ovaries that kind of thing I’ve I’ve had the I’ve had the
horrible comments I’ve had the jokes at my expense but you know I’ve also had you know some great managers and some great team members out there and you know their responses they don’t give a damn about you know what you know what color hair is or you know.
The fact that I’m a woman or a man can I deliver the project can I do my work and that’s what I want to be judged on and I do try to encourage that and I try to make sure that that comes through but
especially when you’re working with certain types of culture where you know being a woman is definitely a disadvantage. I used to have a
colleague of mine and she was working for an international consultancy and she had the what they had a project working in Saudi Arabia and
they all looked to the intern that was with her who you know happen to
be male rather than looking to her for the answers or her to lead it and it
became very very clear cultural wise they had to make a very very clear shift and she actually transitioned out of that project. 00:27:57,000 Because she knew that she just wouldn’t be able to deliver it
successfully and it just became you know quite an environment to work
in. So you know sometimes it’s not just the ingrained attitudes it can just be also culture that we have to take into consideration and place a
massive role in it. Yeah. Yeah it’s and I I’m in a in a position where I have I’m the middle age white man.
00:28:25,000 So I don’t get I haven’t had personal experience of seeing this and from
my point of view it’s kind of I don’t care who you are if you do a good
job you do a good job if you do a rubbish job you do a rubbish job. Yeah
and in general if you’re an idiot you’re an idiot. It don’t mean I don’t care
what type of person what what makes you that it’s whether you can do
a good job and I just it just doesn’t resonate right with me how. How someone can think that someone else can’t do a good job as someone
else you know with the greatest respect you’ve got a bit of the male the male white privilege right there.
00:29:07,000 Oh yeah I’m I am in that position that I’m very I’ve got that very very privileged position that I’m not seeing it. Yeah because I know for
example you know if they look at me so they look at me and my career and they see you know they see my picture say so to say. And I know
that I have actually been in discussions you know job interviews with HR and I have been you know asked you know oh well you know we
really like you we really like your profile and everything else but you
know you’re early to mid 30s that means you’re going to be off having kids right.
00:29:43,000 And it’s actually illegal to ask that in Europe yeah yeah and but I’ve still had that comment you know oh you know well you know we love your
profile but you know you’re in that you’re in that time of life where you
know and it annoys me actually it makes me really really angry. And I
just get in yeah I get very annoyed at the fact you know I look at the the
benefit that I can bring to a workplace and I even have more skills now
as a mother than I did as a non mother I mean my patients level let’s just go through the roof. And you know my ability of being able to
control my team is just gone through the roof because I just talk to them
like I would talk to my toddler yeah yeah I know you mean I had I had with my I was at home with my little number a good eight months mainly me and it was.
00:30:37,000 It’s a different management set of skills you need for when you’ve got a
two or three year old to run random sort after in it. Yes transferable but
but still there still is it’s it’s you don’t get the luxury of having to think
right I’ll sit back and think about that email you have to deal with the cat
be heads being pulled off straight away. So the media they’re dealing with.
00:31:03,000 I think it’s a interesting subject to talk about one I’ve as I say I don’t talk from a strong point of view other than my head shaking at people
behaving in the way that they do sometimes it’s just ridiculous and I
think I think it’s I’m hoping from what I’m seeing it’s feeling like it should be improving. I have two daughters so I absolutely hope that it is
improving yeah the the these assumptions I suppose you come into the UK where they’ve. Change the advertising stereotypes on some of the adverts and people know the organizations can’t advertise using
stereotypes and that kind of behavior shouldn’t be needed but the fact
that that kind of laws coming into places hopefully break down some of
the stereotypes that are there and it’s going to take time because it’s
culture and it’s built into culture and it’s built into people by not people not knowing that they are behaving in the way.
00:32:08,000 That someone else can can not enjoy yeah exactly find I can’t think of
the word offensive is probably the only thing but yeah for the offensive
is near the near the food and I think it’s. And as as managers in projects
we can set the scene for that as well because you can see that that’s unintentional bias that goes on in behaviors between the teams and
spot them and going on stop that’s not acceptable yeah and that’s it’s a
very good point and one of the things I’m actually working on is. With
several other female project managers or female kind of leaders so to
say I’ve been working with them over the past year and I’m continuing
to work on them is how can we start a better dialogue how can we bring
forward a dialogue where you know it’s it’s we’re discussing things in a
positive and neutral manner we are not trying to go on our soap boxes
we’re not trying to be a suffragett we’re just trying to bring across a you
know a discord of this is what we want to try and do this is the benefits that we can.
00:33:19,000 And there’s some really great things that are coming out of you know the APM has the women in project management in October 2019 there
was the. The Irish women in project management conference that’s that
was going on that I was speaking at so it’s you know it’s really useful to kind of see how how this discussion and how this conversation is coming up and I really I really encourage my male counterparts to
always get on board with this but also. To listen to you know to what you know what’s going on and the changes that are going on maybe where we can help each other.
00:33:58,000 To really kind of make a you know make a move you know going forward and I’m lucky that I’ve got some very very good colleagues
actually do listen and that don’t just dismiss or you know don’t just take a you know the very kind of show acoustic male high road and that
actually open to having a discussion about you know. You know making things more equal how can we make things you know more you know more you know more open for all of us and I think that’s that’s something that I’m really trying to work on to also encourage other females to do because you know we can sometimes get pushed into a
little box and we just need to break that box. Yeah I agree and I think I
think it’s it’s much stronger on the there are biocultural biases in in all
directions in that are needing to break down and talking about them is the only way to break them down really.
00:34:54,000 Definitely. And that’s something I was a listener podcast called Big
Picture Sciences and American from the city Institute and they cover
lots of different things in the one episode they had the other day was on bias in data and AI. And there was an author from the UK I can’t remember her name but she talked about a book she’d written and one
of the things that was flabbergasting to me there’s lots of different
things around where he data is collected and all these things but the
one that got me in it you’ll be interested with the automotive thing is the end cap tests in Europe.
00:35:35,000 So only in last four or five years or something that the body shape. Sorry the body size of the test crashed test dummies was changed to
being smaller to reflect the female body. But it wasn’t anatomically
changed so the hips weren’t changed the body density and all that so
none of that was adjusted. And I thought well that’s just annoying and stupid and maybe statistically it doesn’t make a massive difference whatever but I thought me.
00:36:09,000 But then the thing that made me just bang the steering wheel in the car
when I was listening to it was a father but still in those tests that smaller
female in quotes body is only tested in the passenger side. And it’s just
I just I just I just I even know speechless on on that and it’s kind of on
that kind of demonstrates of if you’ve gone to the effort to think oh yeah we need to we should be inclusive and we should have different account for this. But actually then not gone and done the next step
which just flabbergasting me and maybe it’s changed now and it maybe
a little bit I don’t know but it just seemed that at this point in time in 2019.
00:36:52,000 That that sort of end of thought process ticker box try to satisfy someone because it sounds like to me it doesn’t sound like someone doing what they should be doing and the fact is that more women get
injured in the drive inside. So injuries are greater to females than men when there’s a crash on the driver’s side because of the way the
vehicles are built. And I just want to say for the record I’m a much better driver than my husband.
00:37:22,000 Oh, and that’s fine. Do you know what? There are lots of people who are better drivers than the husband better than the wise and it has nothing to do with a gender. It has absolutely nothing to do with a
gender at all. And that’s the thing I’m not reading it’s not to do with the gender is just a at the end of the day. And then someone in the 70s
started making jokes about it. Yeah. That’s kind of where it goes. Well for me it was all about my upbringing because you know what they know the typical housing structure in the UK.
00:37:54,000 So you have a lot of terraces love semi detached on roads that were very, very good in the 1890s not so much in the 1990s. And you know everyone every family now to every household has two three cars. If you wanted to get parked anywhere around my parents house, you had
to learn how to park and you had to learn how to properly drive. Yeah.
So that’s the that’s the only reason that I am the good parker. I have to thank my dad for for taking me out on the motorway.
00:38:23,000 And for being able to actually learn how to properly drive and how to
properly park is just because of the nature of what I was forced to learn
and yeah, yeah, I think that is it does drive and it does get formed depending on what you end up doing. I know I I can reverse without without me. We have you mirror for a number of different reasons because we had to reverse up and down where we were. My cars were
a bit rubbish. But anyway, so moving moving back to specifically project matter really.
00:38:50,000 The whole stem background, the stem element things and all that and
women in getting into stem and it is something I think is very very key
and I think an into project management as a career. We need to look at how we do that as a collective even to the point my brother is just
bought 3D printer for his for his house is is little for your old can start playing with a 3D printer. Oh, cool. Open up the expansions of that route for her and stuff and so my girls can play with that as well.
00:39:29,000 And I’m doing a bit of it on that train album get it working but it’s another thing so on the project manager what do you remember as being your
first project manage roll so when you all first project where you were the project manager you thought. Oh hang on all the buck stops from me
on this. Oh, yeah. This is actually the implementation of a software so I was working through.
00:39:55,000 You know getting this software installs are working with the IT department but it was also you know actually working through the
processes that we need to be changing and things like that. And what
you just say about the whole the buck stops with me that really really came into into into reality here because it was just it was such a. Complex project because anything that involves the word new so whether it’s a new software or new process you have to do a lot of change management and a lot of people management and at the start I kind of really underestimated just how much time that would take.
00:40:33,000 And I remember you know I was at junior PM you know I’ve got my pmp
or I’ve done this so I know what I’m doing. And it was being in that situation you know you’re trying to you know implement this new
software and they just see actually you know what I can have the best
plans and I can have the best risk matrices in the world. But unless I actually work out how to do effective change management with these people you know this project is going to fail.
00:40:59,000 And it was you know you kind of someone told me once you learn from your mistakes more than you learn from your wins and that was
definitely true here. You know it was a big learning experience and it
was one that you know I really hit the ground running on and it was a it was really really useful to actually be a part of. Yeah good.
00:41:21,000 So so thinking of you first now let’s think of what your largest is and
when when I say largest it’s kind of. Significant is probably a better
word than large so did it was it whether it and that significance to you is
that it affected a lot of users did it affect a. A big change of a culture or
the organization you know whether it was just typically the number of days involved or whatever whatever you see as being largest.
00:41:57,000 What would you say is the biggest thing your biggest most significant piece of. I’m going to it was a recent one actually and it was the
implementation of a complete software for a production line. Now the
problem was is you know this was a massive project and I’m not talking you know in mandate I’m talking about its complexity the number of users that we were going to be impacting.
00:42:21,000 And also the fact that we were working with a remote team and you
know working with a third party vendor everything so every kind of box
that you can take for complexity or potential issue I had it in this project.
And this is one of the reasons why it was the most important that you
know the biggest project for me is because it was a project where I took
a step back and I thought I’ve got it. I know what I’m doing I know that I can handle this and you know how sometimes they kind of like you
sometimes feel like a fraud like oh my god can I really do this can I
really take on this complexity can I really make this a success all the time.
00:43:05,000 And I was in this project and it was yes. I knew I knew that I could
deliver I knew that I could do it and I knew that it was within my skill set
to be able to deliver it and you know of course it’s a project it’s going to
have issues it’s going to have you know problems. But it was working
with all of those different complexities it was putting in a lot of hours and you know a lot of team management a lot of stakeholder management but it worked.
00:43:34,000 That’s why I really it’s one of the fondest projects in my memory and I
still have a great relationship with every single team member and you
know it was it’s been really a fantastic opportunity and a fantastic
project to work on it’s one of the ones that I can always have in my I call
it my personal toolbox to bring out so if I know that I need to work with
virtual teams this is a project that I will refer to. If I need to work about you know complex stakeholders it’s a project that I’m going to be
referring to so it’s one of those ones that I’m going to hold it very closely
to my heart but probably for the wrong reasons that it’s just you know
it’s one of the biggest learning opportunities and that’s that’s one of the
reasons why I enjoyed it so much. Yeah I think learning is one of the
things that and surprising yourself when you when you have something
complex that you think as you say at the beginning of a project is quite
often it’s kind of how the hell am I going to get this all into one box and yeah.
00:44:31,000 And kind of get it into its it’s neat organized slots and some of them you never get into those neat organized slots. But when you do it is
satisfying isn’t it and that’s part I think it’s part of the draw for the project
management is that challenge you’ve getting it hang on. Yeah I think I’ve got that as you said I’ve got that that’s yeah yeah yeah yeah.
00:44:52,000 And it’s that that point when you sit in the green some on the good ones
where you sit there go. So bit quiet. Yeah hang on and then you start working.
00:45:03,000 Exactly when it’s like when it’s quiet there’s a problem. Yeah yeah
exactly. So with problems what was of all your career there what would you say would be your biggest screw up that you’ve had in your projects life cycles which one.
00:45:21,000 I was going to say from this week or you know from the recent past.
And sorry just a hook on the end of that what do you learn from it as well. Oh gosh.
00:45:32,000 Well you know because I have also got experience in the agile sphere
one of the things that I try and live by is you know you know fail fast learn quicker. So you know always trying to you know make as many
tries many different things you know fail as much as you can see what
works you know see if it works for your team if it works for the project
and kind of what’s going on. But I think probably the biggest screw up is
you know it’s going to be when I was a junior PM you know as it started my career.
00:45:59,000 And I just didn’t address issues quickly enough you know I I maybe thought oh you know let’s let’s look on the bright side. And that’s
probably the project managers were saying you can ever do is try and
look on the bright side of anything. Because I was trying to I just didn’t
address them quickly enough and that caused a lot more complications it caused a lot more pain further down the line.
00:46:22,000 You know it’s kind of like sticking your head in the sand hoping that you
know it no one’s going to notice or it’s not going to happen and you
know unfortunately more often than not that it does. And you know it’s
one of the things you learn from it’s one of the you get your hands burnt and you have to try and work out how to rectify that as quickly as possible. Cool.
00:46:42,000 So flipping that onto a more positive few then. What would you say is
your proudest project delivery? Oh this is actually one of my first ones this was it was a migration of systems to a third party vendor.
00:46:59,000 So you know this is when it must have been oh gosh it’s nearly 10 years ago where you were doing you know the whole in sourcing outsourcing. So you know phenomena that was going on in IT. Yeah.
And we were doing an outsourcing to a third party vendor to obviously save costs. It was a massive big bag migration it was over the long weekend in May.
00:47:22,000 So it was a lot of coordination between you know three different
countries loads of different teams both virtual and on site. And it was just mayhem and it was the best kind of mayhem and you know when
we were I think the big bang happened over the Saturday evening. And I had you know stakeholders you know on the line from you know Sunday morning Sunday afternoon wanted to know what was going on.
00:47:50,000 What was the status and it was all going fine. You know all of the
preparation we did all of the hard work all of the dry runs. And you know
coming at the end of the bank holiday. We could actually say you know
what we’re good. We’ve done it. It’s all been a success. Everything is running as it should and all of the teams work together seamlessly.
00:48:11,000 And it was one of those things it was the one of the hardest weekends
that I think I’ve ever done project wise. But it was one of the most
rewarding because at the end of it we just you know could all sit back take a sigh of relief and go you know what it’s done. And that was fantastic.
00:48:31,000 Brilliant sounds like a very rewarding end to that project. Do you know
what it’s going back to the whole people thing as well. It was seeing
seeing the teams work together seeing the team achieve that objective. That just made me happy and to know that I was a part of that you know that I facilitated in them being able to be a success.
00:48:51,000 Yeah I can get that you watch another people fly if you like isn’t it. Exactly. So maybe it’s related to that. What would you say would be
your proudest project achievement not necessarily the delivery of the project in this instance.
00:49:10,000 But more and more and what you the legacy of the project maybe or
what happened in the project or something you did within it. Yeah well
for me it’s you know I’m very much people focused so it’s going to be
around training and the people that I was working with. So in some of
the IT projects that I do I love being able to develop the junior team members and the team you know the junior team that we have.
00:49:41,000 And being able to coach them to develop seeing them not only work
together but also you know seeing them thrive. It’s just a wonderful thing for me and you know being able to put the necessary things in
place for them to be able to be a success is is you know it’s extremely rewarding for me. And you know we’ve done pair programming we’ve
done different kind of initiatives to really get our juniors up to speed.
00:50:06,000 But it’s you know it’s treating them as a member of the team and not
just like a lucky that’s just going to get me a cup of tea. And really giving
them that responsibility and empowering them into you know this is the
team. This is you know the ownership that we’re going to have is just
you know it really it really motivated me to be able to continue on.
00:50:26,000 You know I know a lot of project managers if they see that they’ve got
juniors on their team or they’ve got juniors you know working for them
you know they take a big sign and go oh god not again I love it I love
being able to work with you know with juniors and being able to kind of
help people on their on their way to a career. Because I think it’s just
one of the most rewarding things that we can do as as experienced and season pms. And I think from my point of view and I think the
expectation in a lot of the and I go back to the tooling again is the tell you to.
00:51:02,000 On board your staff make sure you develop the staff in most of these
most of the pm box almost talks about the fact that part of the role of
the project is to do to leave the people out of your project when they
leave your project should be better skilled leaving your project and they were when they came in. Definitely definitely and and and and and maybe I’m imagining it when I’m sure that the body andologist I’ve
looked at I’ve got in the people sections it talks about doing that. Yeah because what you’re doing is delivering.
00:51:33,000 And then you’re readying people to be better at the next project that
your organization is needing to deliver. So what’s the point of having someone on a two year project and they come out the end of the two year project the same as they did at the beginning of that two year project. Well to be honest I think it’s almost impossible to leave
someone in that position but actually it should be incumbent on us to
think about it so that when they leave the project they are ready for the next challenge that they either they’ve got in their career path.
00:52:02,000 And then it’s easy to focus on just on the project without focusing on
where’s this person going next what can we get right give them a bit
more responsibility let them fly on fail on that if they want to and then they can learn because they need to like you said the ones some
people will be coming into an organization and they have had the basic
training and they need to have the experience but still having that that parachute of you being there as they’re meant to exactly one I completely agree with you 100% and I think you know what you were
saying like if someone leaves the project with the exact same skills as they coming on for me that means I failed as a project manager very very simply because if I can’t give them a development opportunity
even though they may have done this project five or ten times before. I want to make sure that we can develop them or give them you know a
new role or a new ability of something new that we can give them for
their career and I think they’re so important just in you know in general
for our lives as well because we need to make sure that you know our projects are also seen as enrichment and development opportunities and not just as delivering a goal or an objective.
00:53:12,000 Yeah I agree green, green timing. So that’s really, I’ve covered pretty much all of the questions I had which are relating to you and your
career and your background so I noticed that you’ve got your blog. Yes.
00:53:31,000 M the PM nice and memorable. What was it that got you started in doing it? Why did you feel that you wanted to do that? Well it was
partially around some of the volunteering that I was doing so I wanted
to be able to you know volunteer I wanted to be able to give back and share knowledge.
00:53:53,000 I was already been volunteering with the PM I since around 2011 so I was already creating webinars I was sharing knowledge on there. But you know I was looking for I was looking for knowledge that I could share with my peers so you know not necessarily behind you know the
firewall of the paid wall of the PMI. But I just wanted to really share
knowledge with others so I wanted to be able to be able to point people if they have a question around resource management here you know
I’ve written a blog post on it have a look at it and tell me if you’ve got questions.
00:54:24,000 Or you know the most recent one is around virtual teams because I’ve
had a lot of questions that have been emailed to me or coming through
linked in our Twitter and they say to me you know I’m really struggling
with this I’m really struggling with that can you please help me and
they’re all very similar. So I thought why don’t I just do a series you know one month just on you know blogging around virtual team management so that then I can just point people to this and say you
know what if you’re struggling with virtual teams if you’re struggling with
you know this or that have a look at these blogs and just let me know if
you’ve got any other questions. And you know I really I reached out to
people that follow me on Twitter and I said you know what topics are really burning for you about managing virtual teams and one of them came back about resource management you know how do I how do I work in a virtual team as a team member how do I work you know as a project manager with a resource manager that’s you know located elsewhere.
00:55:20,000 Just the real kind of the basic questions and that’s one of the reasons
why I wanted to be able to create what I call like a knowledge base for you know project managers and people that are looking for knowledge
that are looking for answers. And you know and that can just look at it from a very approach point of view because you know the way that I
write I’m not you know I’m not a theoretical based you know I may give
you you know a brief description or a brief definition but then I’m going
to go into practical tips and hints. You know I’m not going to talk about resource management and then go into this is your resource diagram and this is what you need to do.
00:55:55,000 I’m going to go okay look at this look at this have you have you considered you know smoothing your resource manager have you looked at maybe developing in this way have you looked at you know
how you’re working with your teams I’m all about the practical tips. You
know just so that then at least it’s very easy to digest it’s easy to look at
and it’s very easy to be able to go through. So that’s one of the reasons
why I kind of really started and you know it’s building from there that I have gone in a few different slants you know working with different focus groups you know women in STEM women in project management.
00:56:32,000 And also speaking at various events just so that then I can share knowledge with other project managers and be able to give something back to a community which has given me so much. And you know that’s one of the reasons why you know why I started and why I’m still continuing you know I try and you know blog at least once a week
sometimes I can do a little bit more sometimes less it depends on the
projects I’m working on. But yeah it’s you know I get inspiration from everywhere including walking my dogs in the field.
00:57:03,000 How do you coordinate to Huskies? So obviously that’s where you give
back where do you get your sort of input from an advice so that’s the
kind of next set of my questions would be what podcasts do you listen to podcasts and what was the last one you listen to. So on project management obviously I say I’m going to say if it’s not on project
management I have some great true true crime podcast I love listening to in the car.
00:57:31,000 Because I don’t know if you know you’re the same but when you get
stuck in traffic if I listen to the radio or I listen to some music it just I get
focused on the fact that I’m in a traffic jam. Whereas if I can listen to a podcast and I can put a podcast on for an hour I lose the hour I it
doesn’t bother me so much that I’m sitting in a traffic jam I’m just
learning I’m getting more information and more knowledge. I probably I
I used to and I can tell what any pictures of me may be a genuine but I
used to listen to cassettes in my car a lot and those cassettes were always on subjects to learn so when the podcast came available many years ago it was.
00:58:10,000 I’ve devoured pod casts for years so listening to radio is actually
sometimes I’ve only just recently started to occasionally pop the radio on but podcasts for me are it’s my my daily commute has is I get annoyed when I’m not keeping up to date sometimes on my podcast.
But yeah so I have a vast array of different ones that I listen to. But yeah so I because I know it’s I find it a really really easy way to
consume. Exactly. Yeah. I tend not to have the patience to read a blog although I will flick through Facebook I don’t get it anyway.
00:58:50,000 That’s just the way the brain works I suppose. Talking of the blogs what what’s the last blog that you read then what blogs do you read on project management. Beside your own obviously for editing purposes
and of course of course and so if we’re looking kind of podcast wise I
listen to you know at least Steven she’s like at least the PM I think she
stole a lead I think she stole the PM but you know I’m going to let it go
for that. And I listen to this also her name is Ruth Pierce and she does.
00:59:22,000 Oh, I’m a room between Ruth Ruth and you run the years she was my.
Yeah. So I do read a lot of what she writes and a lot of the blogs that come out from there I’m also kind of.
00:59:35,000 I go through a lot on project management dot com so that’s the PMI one because they have some really thought provoking. You know articles
and blogs that come out that really kind of make me think like there’s
there’s a there’s an entire section on ethics and I was going through a
bit of an ethical conundrum a couple of months ago and I was reading
some of the blogs on there and it really made me question how ethical
am I being as a project manager and it sounds like such a big question.
But you know the blog really broke it down and it was really useful to be able to kind of see you know just how we put certain project management practices really into every day life and into reality.
01:00:17,000 So I kind of I flick through a couple normally it’s I go on Twitter and I try
and look at you know what other people you know people that I respect
and people that I admire you know tweeting about or following. And you
know that’s that’s where I get a lot of my my input on especially when
I’m doing kind of night feeds with my son so kind of it’s it’s two AM in the morning I need something to keep me awake. Oh look you know
only requires one thumb to flip code doesn’t it when you got it on the phone exactly.
01:00:47,000 Keep yourself there I think when we were doing like that feet I was
watching baby TV or something like that which is very weird. So the last
couple of questions if you were going to give one tip to a seasoned PM
someone who’s been died in the world project managing for a long time. What what would be the one thing you’d say to them that could help them improve their project management.
01:01:20,000 You know I I’ve really been thinking about this question today and you
know the one thing that I tell every project manager whether they’ve
been in project management for six months or six years or you know 50 years. It’s you know never stop learning you know there is never an excuse to not continuing to develop and becoming a better project
manager and you know I often see. Also you know in the organizations that I work with and you know some of my colleagues that you know they they’ve been in project management 10 15 years and I think you know you know how you when you get married they say you have the seven year it.
01:02:01,000 Yeah I think in project management you have the 10 to 15 year it. So you know you you kind of you get into project management you’re
working in it but you get so experience that you kind of get a bit like oh
you know not another project or you know I’ve had enough or you know
I’ve. I’ve learned everything that there is to be learned and I kind of
trying kind of force them out of that rut I try and encourage them you know to maybe look at you know different methodologies you know if
they are only a waterfall PM have a look at hybrid have a look at agile you know have a look at learning something more than you know what you were doing on a daily basis and you know it can really be.
01:02:39,000 It can really be it can really be tough especially to you know other you know more senior PMs or you know more seasoned PMs and maybe got more experience than I have to be able to say to them you know
keep learning don’t stop you know continuing your learning journey just because you know you’ve got that experience or you think you know you know everything because you’ve been around the block 10 times
you know there’s always something new. Yeah there is I think there it
and certainly even if it is purely you know if you think about the last five years the available technologies to interact and manage your teams
and as you said the remote working and things like that the way those
of it appeared just learning how to use evenly. I was talking to someone
the other day I think I’m a message on teams. Yeah. And they they’re
paying the message. Oh I haven’t quite gotten to this team thing I say
oh you’re still using Skype for you on the dark side then it’s kind and
that’s that’s like it’s the same tool really but it’s kind of even those it’s
kind of you’re learning to use the new one because it’s slightly different
and that’s a bit more functionality and different functionality and it’s like you’ve always those are slightly different way to do things.
01:03:53,000 Yeah definitely. So thinking back is my final question back in Mazda or
was it Mazda was it where we took on your first project and you’re able to give yourself a bit of advice you’ve jumped in you delorean and you’ve zoomed back and what is the one thing you would say to to to
Emma she stood there thinking right oh this is my fault all this. Oh gosh
you know apart from you know run run for your life run. You know it’s
going to be this is going to sound you know very boring but it would be
listen to your team and stakeholders and listen to what they might not
be saying because I think one of the most underrated skills is listening.
01:04:50,000 And especially for you know junior pms or you know people that are just coming in they think oh you know I need to manage people I need to
you know talk to them I need to constantly talk at people. And I think one of the biggest you know rewards and the biggest benefits that I have as a project manager is listening. Not only listening to my
stakeholders listen to you know what they’re telling me about the risks or you know listening to you know what’s going on but it’s also you know hearing what they’re not telling me.
01:05:16,000 You know are they you know are they kind of withholding information for
a specific specific reason are they doing something you know that is a
bit strange for for their role in the project. And that’s something that I really kind of would and I encourage other project managers and you
know the genius I kind of see is to you know listen to what they’re not
saying but also just listen in general. And I was with I was working with one team and I just said I’m just going to sit in the team room.
01:05:47,000 I’m not going to do anything I’m not going to say anything I’m just going
to sit there and listen and he listens to the conversations that go on both within team members to see the dynamics that are you know working or developing there. But it’s also just seeing you know the interactions. And you know the body languages and what’s going on and that’s also why you know if you’re working with virtual teams.
01:06:06,000 I recommend you know going to the you know going to the virtual location and you know just making that relationship building those
relationships and you know listening and you know talking to people.
Just so that then you can get a bit of a greater understanding about
what’s going on. And you know that’s really been the biggest benefit that I can you know offer as wisdom and knowledge.
01:06:28,000 I was bringing a piece set of advice you could say I think it’s that listening is something sometimes you catch yourself not doing when you catch yourself not doing you realize damn I should have been.
Yeah so that is the end of all the questions I have for you really. Yeah
that’s it so if people want to find out more about you getting touch with you what is the simplest easiest your preferred way of contact.
01:06:57,000 You can you can tweet me at m_pm you can contact me on linked in with Emily Lerbrecht and I’m guessing you’re hopefully going to be
spelling my last name so people can can work out as valid. It will be in
the show notes so people will be able to grab that straight from the show notes. Or very easily they can email me at Emily at m the pm.com.
01:07:32,000 So they can get hold of me and I’m always open if people have
questions or they have you know advice or they would need just a little
bit of help. Please feel free to contact me I’m very very approachable. Thank you very much for having me.
01:07:49,000 Thank you have a fantastic rest of the day. Yeah you too thanks a lot for 01:07:57,000 your time. No problem.
Many thanks to Emily for a really great interview. If you know of anyone who is interested in how it all has an interesting take on project management and would like to be interviewed ask them to ping me a message or at sundaylunchpm pod at NigelCriser.com.
01:08:16,000 If you’ve got questions or comments about the show then use some
address or catch hold of me on Twitter, Facebook, Instagram, etc with the handle sundaylunchpm. I’m really interested to hear where you would like to see the podcast develop and then what feedback you’ve
got about it really. And if you want to support it I mentioned earlier about sponsorship but if you want to support it in other ways.
01:08:45,000 The easiest ways obviously share with your friends and colleagues. The
recommendation from yourself if you enjoy this podcast and find value
of it far out strips any promotion I can do. So if you have the time and inclination please share.
01:09:08,000 Next if you want to give me a review that would be great as well on any
platforms that you’re listening to. If you aren’t aware that you can grab a
copy of this on most of the main podcast facilities, the Apple’s, the Google podcast, Spotify, etc. Or you could either way as you can
support is grab a free copy of the when I were a project manager and or buy a copy of project management sketches.
01:09:45,000 And finally I’ve got the next the last I’ve got the Patreon page which if
anyone wants to contribute again any contributions greatly appreciated.
But more importantly come back come back next time have a listen. Hit that subscribe button in your podcast or whatever to make sure you don’t miss out a single episode.
01:10:13,000 Some of the stuff we’ve got is time related so grabbing it when it comes
out to be really good. So that’s it from me and just one thing say really remember the hashtag project management is funny. Well it’s goodbye from me Nigel Kreese and it’s goodbye from him the Sunday lunch pm.
01:10:38,000 Goodbye. [Music] [BLANK_AUDIO]