n
3ad6b33840c1e2c9db3afe5c62d139ba.m4a
00:00:00,000 Hello and welcome to the Sunday Lunch Project podcast for the 28th of February 2021. This is your host Nigel Creaser as usual and today we’ve got Ramon Voulings and the idea DJ on the show back in a minute.
00:00:34,040 I just quick one from me on sponsorship. We don’t carry out a sponsor on the show if anyone is out there who is looking to pull out their business. Obviously we have a niche of project managers on here and
if you are targeting towards that niche then please get hold of me and
00:01:10,960 ping me an email at Sunday Lunch PM at NigelCreaser.com. In fact if
you wrote anything to NigelCreaser.com it would come to me in radiate that would be there. A lot of different options on how we can
accommodate you. Just get in touch and I can chat through those with you. It would
00:01:33,120 be great to have a sponsor for the show and on with a new song. So
what’s been going on lately? I have been doing a couple of interviews, sort of an interview. We’ve got some interesting
00:02:00,880 people. Today’s interview with Ramon I’ve been a trainer put in place for
a good 18 months for so now and our diaries have bounced back into it
different times but it’s great to chat through. Early in the week and would have reason for such a quick turnaround with his interviews
00:02:19,560 got a new book coming out of which looks fascinating. So we talk a little
bit about that. We talk about creativity and innovation together as you
can probably gather this year. I’ve got in a couple of a topic on that. A couple of other interviews set up again slightly tangential
00:02:48,360 to our project roles but supportive. So another interview next week and
one a week after. I’ve also got in the bag another interview with John Quigley on product development in the automotive industry. Again interesting. Now I’ll be out probably back in the next month
00:03:13,760 or maybe not. I’m looking at the schedule at the moment. I’m starting to
think I need to go to a twice a month formal schedule and rather than
doing the sort of end of the month and then internet so I’ll let you guys know what I’m going to do. What I’m going to formally do.
00:03:40,960 I’m quite a quick thurrache of an edit the other day and currently just
over 50% on the edit. I’ve got a few other things I’ve committed to do this month and next month so I’ve kind of put it back on the back burner. I do want to get it done because I think at the soon the information
00:04:04,240 in there is valuable and useful to people and not entirely time sensitive
to this a little bit around there. But I’m yet. I wouldn’t want to commit to
the end of March but I’m going to see if I can do that. What else has happened? Work a bit of time off and chilled out with
00:04:29,200 the family doing a bit of home assembly of bed new beds and things
like that and moving things around and that’s good good. We catch any
day. Good. You notice the difference in your mood when it’s been quite
full on with work and it was all pantheric stuff. But over here in the UK we
00:04:55,760 just had a road map of when things will kind of get back to a more
normal environment and it’s from a stuff lifted a little bit by that which is encouraging and I’ll hopefully change everything for these mood and help with all of our mental health. I also, as I mentioned
00:05:20,760 to you that I was doing my daily running. I also signed up for the virtual London marathon if you follow me on LinkedIn you may have seen it.
That I signed up for that. That’s in October. I’ve looked at all the
marathon before. I’ve done half. At the age of knocking on 52 I keep
00:05:45,600 saying all the marathon I keep applying for the London one and with the
odds of getting in there being diminishingly small. I saw a friend who
was doing it and thought well I might as well. My chosen charity is the Alzheimer’s research UK. If you can spare a pound thank you. If you
00:06:09,320 can pop a lot I’ll put a link in the show notes but I have a virgin money
giving page. I’d really appreciate it. I’m trying to raise 500 on the way
to it but as much as I can raise the better and every pound everybody gives is a pound that hopefully will come back and
00:06:31,640 find treatments for this horrible disease which we’ve got personal
experience in the phone back onto more cheerful topics. If you want to
jump on the podcast I’ve had a few people contact me directly now to appear on the podcast and it’s great. Pop lines on website 00:06:58,120 www.onlinecalender.com.com. There’s a link to my calendar online
calendar. Find a slot we can either have a pre chat if you’re popping
there but why you think whether it’s if you’re a project manager you want to have a chat about your history and project management or
00:07:18,000 whether you have a specific topic that I think would be beneficial to the list list then let me know and we can either delve straight into an
interview or have a pre chat before that and then decide what to do that way. And I think that’s it really. I’m sitting here
00:07:36,280 with Sunday morning looking at the sunshine watching a number of
birds flying around in the garden and it’s feeling very spring like here in
E.K. We get out in the sunshine at some point to do a little job but you probably had enough for me and oh that was the one there
00:07:59,480 I said I have video recorded this episode and we’ll put it on YouTube over the next couple of days you can see Rammel and myself you may
not want to see me as I’ve said to others I have a very good face for radio and I also think I’m probably looking at the screen instead
00:08:20,020 of the camera because I still can’t work that out and my brain doesn’t
know to do it so it’s a bit of an experiment I may carry on doing that with
future interviews just to add a little bit more dynamics so if you prefer to see a video and see someone chat in rather
00:08:38,800 than just listening then there might be another way to consume it so on
with the interview and speak to you in a bit. Today I’d like to welcome onto the show Ramon Voulings. Ramon is an engaging international
00:09:01,640 key to get notes speaking and an author of three book management
books on business creativity and cross-sector innovation. He’s a cross industry expert consultant and an idea DJ wearing audiences around
the globe and I first saw Ramon at an event for my company and I just
00:09:24,420 had to get hold of him and we’ve had a few conversations back and two
and both of us had different reasons why we haven’t been able to make
previous calls but it’s actually worked out better I think. It’s described as an electrifying and passionate speaker and
00:09:41,000 this talk on topic of cross industry innovation and creativity was one of
the most well-received talks at the NASA summit, let’s say that again,
at the NASA summit. This is the guy that gets people excited in NASA who just land things on Mars and he’s got a new book coming 00:09:58,640 there called Great Leaders Mix and Match and welcome to the show
Ramon. Thanks a lot, great to be here. Brilliant. As I say we’ve been
back into a little bit with different reasons and all the lockdown stuff going on across the world has interrupted
00:10:15,600 the chance to chat. Just tell the intro there and tell the listeners as we’re
experimenting with video for the first time properly. People can see the
book there, tell us a bit about you, your background, how you got into what you’re doing.
00:10:36,120 Very good. Ramon’s Filling, I’m a Dutch guy living in Belgium currently
for the last 17 years or so and I actually also lived in Paris for a while
and in Chiang Mai in Thailand where I actually written my previous book because we went there with our first son at the
00:11:00,640 time. I’m an idea, DJ, that’s what I call myself. I’ve always been interested in mixing ideas. When I started my career, I started in consulting, I wanted to work internationally so I decided to go to Coopers and Librend which later became Pricewaterhouse Coopers. One of the
00:11:23,160 big five of the consulting companies because I thought this is my ticket
to go international. It was a great time. I was part of the CRM team,
customer relationship management team. Finally, I got to the position of the Imiya, Europe Middle East and Africa lead for our CRM efforts
00:11:45,000 which was absolutely fascinating to see. But there I also noticed that
innovation, especially large corporate innovation is within boundaries,
within certain bandwidth and I wanted to go wilder. I wanted to make way more extreme or nicer, more elegant combinations, also more aesthetic combinations
00:12:08,520 you might say and I also wanted to work in Muzia and all kinds of cool
buildings and no longer just boring office buildings in the outskirts. So I started my own company and that’s now 70 years ago or something and it’s been an incredible ride. Innovation, also design thinking,
00:12:31,080 creativity, it all came more popularized also in the startup communities and larger organizations figuring out more radical ways. The first
unicorns were born of course in startup land. So it’s a very interesting
time to have been in more the front end of innovation really trying to figure
00:12:53,960 out alternatives to ideation, new ideas and working with a lot of clients
because also in my a lot of clients I actually took from my previous roles as well. They also wanted to explore these new grounds and in many
cases the key lesson I learned from quite some projects at clients is that
00:13:15,000 clients don’t really seek the newest things, they just seek things new to
them with their audience and that’s interesting because that also takes away the pressure of coming up with an incredible new idea for the
world. You’re actually looking for new ideas matching for that target audience,
00:13:33,960 matching for that environment and also that many incredibly great ideas
are actually combinations. So that’s the main premise and that’s when I also moved more from the creativity angle into into cross industry
innovation, looking across borders, across sectors. So yeah that’s a bit of the
00:13:54,440 background here. We are with a small team of people, we are with
eight, we are a network organization and it’s great to serve clients all
over the world so the majority of my work is in English. No, brilliant. So
as I said earlier the first I’ll show you were speaking at an event at one of our
00:14:14,680 corporate gatherings of our project managers and I found the whole concept of innovation. In fact innovation is something I’ve been
interested in. We were kicking off a number of innovation things. It must
be four, five years, six years ago and I started getting involved in some of that but didn’t
00:14:32,360 manage to get into that. I suppose it’s that formulaised innovation rather
I think in all instances or wherever I’ve worked is everyone’s we need to
be innovative, whatever innovative means and how to struck in a large corporation, how to just a large department even how to structure
00:14:55,960 that innovation and make sure that and I suppose to me the innovation
has been around for different word ways and but to get it out of the
teams you’ve got the even to the point where you’ve got the ideas box,
the suggestion box. It’s an innovation tool isn’t it and then you get move on to things where
00:15:19,160 you hear things like 3M or whatever it was with the guy with the post it
no trying to make the world’s best glue made the worst glue but created
something incredible and things all those different stories that you hear
and I kind of when I started looking at looking at the fact they’re having a structure
00:15:36,920 around innovation I was quite to me it’s one of the things you think why
isn’t that something I thought of before it’s obvious that that’s a way to
increase innovation because when you just say yeah as part of your job
just innovate it’s finding the time to innovate but sometimes you have to do through
00:15:55,480 necessity the last 12 months the innovation across the globe has been
accelerated I imagine incredibly and as you say it’s people moving to
using teams for example from the point of I know that we have our local school parent teachers association
00:16:18,040 they had a meeting on teams it wasn’t and that actually it wasn’t new it’s been around and it actually the way it worked it increased the contribution and engagement from the parents and the and the people
because normally it was a meetup and it wasn’t as easy to get to and it’s and it just
00:16:36,760 made it some of those things you think well actually there’s a you
wouldn’t have necessarily done it unless you’re forcing it so kind of talk about how you how you see innovation how do you define innovation what is it and innovative idea well for me I make a really simple distinction creativity is coming up
00:17:00,760 with ideas and innovation is implementing ideas so that’s also where we
hit the project management angle I would say and and also the reasons why organizations or people innovates I actually see also there a twofold approach it’s or a fair based
00:17:22,360 rational or dream based rational you innovate out of a fair that
something bad might happen or you innovate out of a dream this could
be so much better or wouldn’t it be great if and in general also a lot of
entrepreneurs are famous for solving I don’t know customer frictions or 00:17:41,560 frustrations and these drivers are to me are always dream drivers
because they already envision this more beautiful solution this this way better approach to solve something so fear and dreams my main
distinction on why you should start to innovate all right yeah I can see is the carrot and
00:18:04,200 sticks out of slurry isn’t it yeah I would say oh yeah you could say it’s
like that yeah yeah it’s yeah I get that yeah so that’s interesting what you said that the creativity and the innovation the kind of the two
separate sort of stages if you like which comes first because is there a
00:18:27,000 chicken and eggs in area at times is without the ability to implement the
innovations does that stifle creativity and but obviously without the creativity start off with would you get anything to innovative to
implement I would say there is a not really a chicken and egg here it’s creativity
00:18:49,560 where it starts with where you’re envision this this new thing and also in many cases a lot of stuff you cannot even implement it you can
envision a lot more things that then can be implemented now at you to I don’t know technology society all changes budgets who knows so creativity is for me
00:19:09,480 clearly at the beginning and then innovation is the process to actually make it real and what’s crucial in there is that you need a lot of creativity during your innovation process and sometimes innovation
processes are pretty rigid and and that’s also yeah looking at project management
00:19:32,040 again in this case sometimes the creative part slowly gets gets
organized out because as soon as you start to come with an innovative
idea it’s crucial to keep the innovative level of this the uniqueness alive and sometimes when you go through a stage gate process or are different
00:19:52,520 committees or teams or technology that needs to comply with sometimes that’s exactly the thing that makes it so creative and so unique gets organized out so that’s something to be careful about
during your whole process yeah so it’s I’m trying to think where where I heard it
00:20:11,640 and it’s literally in the last week or I’ve either just read something or
heard something about the fact that and like your view on this is that the brainstorming sessions and ideation sort of sessions it’s not
necessarily the ideas that you come up with at the beginning of those sessions probably
00:20:34,680 there are some but when you’re all sat around scratching your heads at
the last minute for the last thing and someone just comes up with that
ridiculous comment of something or something really out there because
it’s the everything it’s the like the the Star Trek thing the improbable impossible sort of
00:20:51,960 things that you’ve ruled out then you come to that point where they you come to another idea that everyone goes yeah but you can’t oh maybe
we could do that and it’s that that one that you go we can’t because you all assume not and you you’ve just dragging out those last few
00:21:08,280 unthinkable ideas and and that I suppose if you cut it because
especially if you’re doing it with in a project mind you’ve got your
delivery timelines that you’re trying to arrive at and getting these ideas
out quick so you can decide which way to go and plan it as a project manager
00:21:26,600 I’m always trying to think well let’s solve the problem quick let’s get it
out of the way let’s get it done let’s get it done at the good price and
given the scope but sometimes that that little bit longer might give you more true and there’s no shortage of ideas if you look look
00:21:44,440 around on the web if you in your average brainstorm sometimes people
are really happy with the ideas that they they came up with and an easy
check is yeah on the web seeing if it’s already there and in many cases many of these ideas that were totally new to someone are already existing order is
00:22:06,280 already a little company doing or a big company doing such a such a
thing or delivering such a product so and that’s also don’t be afraid of
the pressure or at least don’t yeah don’t be pressurized in coming up with the new come up with something new and relevant to your group or your environment
00:22:27,880 looking at my own experience for us as international consultants I guess for you the same thing yeah working remotely and via teams at Skype and zoom was was pretty commonplace for large global oriented
consulting kind of companies that was total normal practice now it’s normal
00:22:49,400 practice for the rest of the world and for some it’s a radical radical
change so that’s an interesting thing to see that again context clearly matters and for ideas sometimes yeah a lot of sectors are organized around best practices trying to get to the the optimum level
00:23:10,360 in a certain area or domain or branch well actually for real innovation you need to go to the next practice so not best practice but next
practice new ways of doing and often they come from other areas other
domains other industries like the airline business that did away with
00:23:33,240 physical tickets so Ryanair and EasyJet were the first ones to do away
with these tickets soon relatively soon the major air carriers also flipped
over and then you saw also I don’t know theaters and all other kinds of industries of course going ticketless because why were we still
00:23:52,920 printing tickets and well you could use that on your phone or maybe QR code or something so it’s interesting to see that these kind of movements finally jump over and technology of course does that does that by definition yeah crossing borders are very easily so that’s
00:24:09,720 yeah interesting few to go from best to next practices that’s interesting
because and I suppose that pulling from other domains and rather than
stealing the thunder on there it’s kind of the ID ID or DJ concept that I
heard you talk about is that kind of thing isn’t it it’s kind of you
00:24:31,080 want to just expand on that idea DJ and I know there’s a couple of stories that you spoke about that and a colleague of mine sent me a
design thinking pamphlet a booklet a Tres is it TREZ three yeah the 40
different I think it was 40 different concepts of how you do things I’d seen
00:24:55,560 that many years ago and and and looked at it and thought ask that isn’t in fact like somewhere in this office I have a printed copy of it
somewhere that I’d net I’d very rarely look at but I should probably should more win especially when problems often and and I related to some of those so can
00:25:12,840 you talk a bit about what what the hell is an idea DJ yeah idea DJ let me yeah give you also a little bit of the background because it was
actually born out of a experiments that we did Mark Haleve my friend
and colleague and I we decided to use visuals to stimulate people in large group
00:25:36,600 ideation sessions so we had prepared a whole database visuals and
based on yeah what the subject would be we would inspire people with visuals we thought and so we had this whole set ready we did these
large screens and projection on the walls and everything and we called it idea DJ it’s
00:25:55,240 like like VJing but then with ideas we thought and as soon as you get a lot of people head there was a time we actually got large groups of people in rooms and way way back yeah way back at large tables so we had about 120 people from a large bank and they had to come up with new ways
00:26:17,000 of working new ideas and so we thought we’re gonna trigger them with fantastic images or over the world to really come up with new combinations and new ideas and the first thing that happens when we started to show these things people were at round tables no one was looking at the screens
00:26:35,240 everybody was looking at each other and talking to each other so Mark and I thought like okay this makes no sense so then we just stopped this whole thing and we thought this is not working and then we reverted the idea DJ service finally to ID VJ to do life
00:26:57,080 support of idea pitching because at the end of this session people were
trying to pitch their ideas but then you have people scribbling on note
pads and scribbling on flick charts which are incredible the no one can really read these things and the whole board was flown in from Malaysia to
00:27:17,800 wherever and everybody was there at the scene these these people
were pretty tired already and they had to show a nice face because this
whole group of 120 people was working the whole day with their ideas and then we had I don’t know 10 groups coming up presenting their ideas it was awfully boring
00:27:33,960 so after the first group Mark and I looked at each other like we need to
help these guys because they were working hard today but they they’re
not able to pitch their ideas at least they will not get the attention it deserves because some of these ideas were really really clever
00:27:50,040 and then we thought okay let’s help them because we have this whole
data base of images so let’s support them with images and that’s when
the concept started to work that we could visually support real-time based on what people said because we could easily browse in our database or we knew the
00:28:05,160 images because we had prepared all of them and we just flipped on images as these people were pitching real-time life and people were
amazed saying yeah yeah yeah we were trying to talk about the mobile phone app for the bank or something and we showed the mobile phone and then also more in
00:28:20,600 associative type of thing so and when you get need to get closer to the customers and I knew we had a picture of a guy hugging a bear so we
hit the picture and of the guy hugging a bear and then the management
said yes yes we need to be more yeah more forwards and take the risk to go closer to
00:28:37,160 our customers so that’s when IDADJ actually got a second life as a
visual support thing and only then two years later after that we did quite a few of these sessions so supporting plenary speakers and Q&A sessions with visuals we made the click that now it should not be IDADJ this should be IDADJ
00:28:59,800 like visual jockeying and that also released the IDADJ to the more
original term and that’s also why we’re here now to really be a person
that can mix and match IDS cross domains cross sectors so that’s yeah
this really is part of a process getting there and that’s when also the official
00:29:23,480 definition got born what is an IDADJ an IDADJ is someone who creates
beautiful combinations which have or generates value and impact that’s short short for what an IDADJ do does the beauty lies in the way a
process is organized that doesn’t really need to be aesthetic it’s nice if it’s also aesthetic
00:29:48,600 but it’s the beauty in how things are solved so going from operational
excellence to operational elegance so that’s where the beauty part is
the value should be in the widest definition so for people planned to
profit but value to all stakeholders not just shareholders and the impact part is it should
00:30:10,760 be real it should not be marketing fluff and it should be upscalable and
sustainable and if your solutions work with these three things in there
then you have a beautiful and I say perfect IDADJ mix because that’s
what you’re striving for to make this kind of perfect mixes so that’s for me an
00:30:31,240 IDADJ is someone who can actually yeah mix these things make yeah
right and beautiful combinations excellent excellent that’s a and I guess there’s more than one IDADJ out there are you the only one no no no
this is my whole book is aimed at getting business leaders or leaders in the wider sense of
00:30:53,880 the word actually to all become better idea DJs there’s also there’s
different terms of these have we call because I just like the term idea
DJ but you can also I believe they’re called I even mentioned that in the book here you can see them as multi potentialized renaissance women men
00:31:15,080 neo generalists you name it there are many descriptions for these type
of people who let’s say easily navigate have a wide interest then the evil easily easily navigate between domains they’re able to talk to
virtually everybody and so they are true connectors so it’s and they try to
00:31:37,320 step out of this generalist specialist discussion because for some areas
they are clearly specialist and they have a tendency to you know keep
a generalist few so that’s yeah that’s where you see a lot of idea DJs
and I just want more people to yeah act in that way yeah I don’t I like I like the
00:31:58,920 term idea DJ because it gives you that immediate visual mixing of stuff
yeah straight away and and to me it really resonated when you talked about it and when you talked about some examples that you’ve seen where people have used this concept and and across different especially the cross
00:32:16,520 industry stuff and I thought there was some things in there that just blew blew me away and and obviously do we want you’ve got the book
coming out is we’ve talked about it and this is assuming that we did a video of this there’s a picture assuming they record properly and everything
00:32:33,800 there’s a picture of it there behind your left shoulder from what it looks
like on here do you want to just tell us a little bit about about the book about what’s in there and what how how people could become a better idea DJ or just start becoming an idea DJ
00:32:50,920 now I think technically virtually everybody already is because creativity
actually comes from combining everything as a remix is a beautiful term and also a beautiful video series by the way highly recommendable
everything is a remix from Kirby Ferguson and I’ll put that in the show.
00:33:10,760 Yes please do the and also send you the link and yeah my lady’s book
great leaders mix and match with the subtitle get ready for the future
with the iadj strategy because there are some components that you can
follow to become better at it. In detail on my left shoulder you see the cover on the
00:33:30,440 right shoulder you actually see the index of the book because we use
these arrows to navigate so it’s a different way of navigating a book in
this case I don’t know if you can see here I have the actual book here
and if I flip open the side you see this little ladder so these are the colors so
00:33:48,680 you can color navigate through the book because I also wanted this
book to be a mix of things there is a mix of my thinking and a mix of
other people’s thinking the beautiful quote that old books are made up
by other books which is great how thinking builds upon each other and I’ve came to
00:34:10,360 six major chapters and a tool section so my first chapter outlines the
concept that great leaders mix and match so the actual title is also the
title of the first chapter where I outline the need for the world’s iadj because problems are becoming more complex we are running out of 00:34:32,280 time space nature resources you name it a lot of problems are
intertwined they’re called wicked problems it’s not just a simple single
problem and also in business with technology and systems all linked to each other our whole economy is linked linked to our logistics everything is linked so it’s
00:34:57,880 very hard to come up with a single point solution that nicely solves your very complex problem so a complex problem needs to be solved with a
combination of solutions and that’s where the more advanced DJing ID
DJing comes into place and that’s what I position in the first chapter
00:35:19,800 that it’s crucial to look at the world from a less simplistic angle and try to
focus on these more beautiful combinations that truly have value to a
wider system and are implementable and upscalable so really generate impact so that’s the first chapter the second chapter is called
00:35:40,120 refuse to accept your current reality somehow we ended up in this space in this time and some people take things we have now for granted and can hardly remember how life was before I don’t know we
just I believe we just saw one of your kids coming by for the mobile telephone
00:36:00,520 for the smartphone so it’s hard for young kids to imagine a life without
internet let alone more all internet let alone these little devices that run them so how did people look something up 20 years ago without Wikipedia and how did we navigate without ways or Google Maps or these things
00:36:20,120 now people take them for granted at GPS now really steers us
everywhere refusing to accept your current reality is being aware that whatever we use now wherever we are now is made up many cases by
design decisions by people and that’s on processes that’s on physical products that’s on structures
00:36:39,400 that’s on societal status and it’s also important to see that you can also
decide to not accept a certain reality but to change that reality I don’t know in Europe now we have this incredible problem with refugees coming in by little boats they hit somewhere Italy or Greece or something and somehow
00:37:05,000 we decided to not open the borders and we are who are we not opening
these borders or and there are deals to stop these things but there are
also people who decide hey there’s a problem there let me go and help them and they just load up stuff into a truck and a tent and
00:37:23,160 everything and they just drive there to really go and do something they
don’t accept a reality that this is a political problem no this is a
humanitarian problem so it’s incredible interesting strong to see how
people decide I know I know one guy he drives for a big transportation company he actually
00:37:41,960 got one of the old trucks and loaded it full with blankets and everything
and he just drove all the way to Greece to really just to go there to see for himself and to help people because he knew there were people in need and this is clearly for me something as an example of someone who decides
00:37:57,880 to not accept a current reality that we see maybe on television but
actually decides to do something about it and this actually became one
of the major chapters I give various examples there of people really
changing their own reality and with that changing other people’s reality because a lot of
00:38:18,040 people are willing at least mentally to entertain a different way of
operating a different way if I don’t know sharing profits working together
helping each other and it’s an interesting place to be because as soon
as you discuss things and make things visible that there are alternative ways to
00:38:37,480 organize things actually a silent majority yeah in many cases will flip if a
better alternative is offered and some people are still stuck in their mind
in many cases no this is the way it always has been but it never is the
case that it always has been because this is also created at a certain
00:38:57,320 point in time so that’s yeah the refusing to accept your current reality
included in business in life in your relationship it doesn’t really matter then my third chapter is about curiosity is your superpower why are people listening to this wonderful podcast why are people exploring things
00:39:14,680 there is a curiosity curiosity curiosity that drives so many people and
now with the internet yeah your curiosity can be filled with steroids and
that’s absolutely magical it also has its downsides of course because
we all want these little dopamine shots and you can browse LinkedIn or worse Instagram for
00:39:33,880 the rest of your life of course that the algorithm will help you with that
and so it’s also being mindful that we these virtually all algorithms at
least the social media algorithms are geared to providing you with what they think you find interesting and in many cases that really works
00:39:54,840 out if we want to dive into a subject in a patient approach management
you will get the 10 best books and the next support cast in the next
video and at a certain point you are in your own little confirmation
bubble on how you run projects and this is and then we are nearly yeah all these
00:40:11,240 algorithms are best practice organized so the key is to really burst out
of that to break that I love the example from Spotify they have a playlist
called taste breakers so based on what you love to listen to on Spotify
they deliberately try to break your taste to experience new music I think
00:40:30,360 that’s a wonderful way of thinking like you need taste breaks how can you organize taste breakers in your own knowledge management in
your own systems even I wonder in music I’ve always when I first got
my first again you talk about the innovation it was the iPod but I was too
00:40:46,280 tight to buy iPod so I bought the cheaper MP3 version and got my my
20 gig it was a hard cost I think it wasn’t it’s an actual physical hard disk
so didn’t last that long in the end it crashed because it was a physical desk rod nest indeed SSD the first iPods were also
00:41:04,040 spending years yeah so and just now you think of a surprising lead last
little longs that they did but but there was 30 gig of music on there that I
put all my music ripped all of it and then I played it and then I would
quite regularly put it on random yeah right and some amazing songs I’d
00:41:21,320 never ever heard because there would be an album from that I didn’t
listen too much or whatever and you that that whole concept of getting
something that you haven’t listened to for say 10 years or five years
sometimes I think I love that concept of just play random the difficulty
00:41:37,400 with some of the music style things is they play random which means whatever they’ve been paid to play yeah you kind of isn’t as random
and I remember hearing something about the fact that when the original
iPod algorithm for playing random was a proper randomized player so it was just as likely
00:41:57,400 to be random that it would play the song that you liked four times in a row that was just as likely as situation so they had to change the
algorithm to make it not really random brilliant yeah it’s just like yeah
and I just think that that concept of Spotify didn’t realize they did that
00:42:14,520 I’m not a Spotify user I haven’t used it a little bit but that concept I think
is fantastic because that that echo chamber that we all I’m conscious
that I do both on Facebook Twitter and any of the social medias there
there are people I will follow people I will unfollow depending on the nature of the
00:42:37,560 topics that they’re discussing or just still be a friend but not necessarily
watch their feed or whatever and things like that and by that way I’m creating my own echo chamber that’s confirming my views whether
they be political whether they be sport with spiritual whether it be a project
00:42:56,280 management side of it and it it’s comfortable when people are saying
that these things are reaffirming what you think of and it’s hard to step
out isn’t it into that thinking out someone else might think is you that clearly in the US now huh yet yeah it’s incredible division between Republicans and
00:43:17,960 Democrats so so that’s that I think that’s that’s yeah that really shows
yeah also the worst things that can happen that and yeah both parties
totally feel that they are absolutely right and so yeah we need to figure out how how to yeah listen to each other even better yeah it’s the
00:43:36,760 polarization I suppose the things in social media will die down into social media thing here but newspapers you have done it for for however long newspapers have been around century two centuries
whatever the those first pamphlets will have people read it and that’s their bias they’re they have social
00:43:55,800 class or their group people will have that same view and you and then
it’s just the it’s it’s not it’s not about whether those things existed it’s
about the the rockets they’ve got underneath the business kind of with the social media in the internet now the power of the same messages from
00:44:16,040 back in a hundred years plus a go but they are able to polarize much
more many more people yeah and of course with political parties with newspapers it’s clear how you have a left or right orientation the
problem with the algorithms and social media is that you get content of which
00:44:38,200 is not 100% clear from which angle it comes but it starts to help you in
your bubble and your affirmations and you don’t really know what the
original creator intended with that and that’s when things get really yeah really really fuzzy and unclear and you get this unconscious bias
00:44:58,360 kind of affirmations yeah and that’s that’s and that’s something I think
that needs to be one of the because also my my chapter three accuracy is your superpower one of my please also that education should be
organized curiosity and that you should figure out ways to to get more
00:45:15,960 curious and also to have everybody not even young but also older people deal with have fake news one thing but also knowing what an
algorithm can do for you but also against you against your thinking and
that’s yeah some of the technology skills that we are clearly going to need to update
00:45:39,080 and rewrite curricula around it especially now with deep fakes because in the old days you could at least kind of trust pictures and video
footage as we have now but also in this call everything is fake your
background is fake my background is fake yeah and then our faces are still pretty okay
00:45:58,120 I think this is real yeah I’m not sure because your profile picture was
totally shabin and this is this is this is what this is what happens in
lockdown yes fantastic so yeah that’s that’s something that’s going to be a crucial skill to do some truth finding also in your curiosity
00:46:19,720 because otherwise you get confirmations of things and what we see of
course that in marketing you also see that there is a lot of beautiful
ideas and beautiful pictures and later on there was nothing substantial
behind them that’s also something where I plea for an idea DJ if you’re going to make a
00:46:40,760 solution or something should not be marketing fluff but it should be real
it should be tangible and it should generate real impact and that’s yeah that’s a crucial crucial part there yeah I think I think that whole
questioning curiosity thing and I see you I’ve got teenage daughter and a
00:46:59,800 soon creeping up on teenage daughter so that’s whole concept of
questioning that the skeptical but not pessimistic skeptical so I forget the name the American guy Randy James Randy who’s the kind of put
up a prize for proving there was ghosts or something and then he said like
00:47:26,680 a sceptic professional sceptic if you like not in a negative way but in a way of asking the questions thinking about how you someone’s presenting and go well hang on a minute what does that really mean and quite often I have a conversation with someone around the statistics that’ll come out around
00:47:44,600 right this person or this group of people are ill because of this reason or
this group of people are well because of this reason and then kind of go
well it’s a fundamental one for me that I always has is that correlation yeah so that so the fact that people who who eat McDonald’s are ill
00:48:06,120 okay so it’s pretty much static there that’s there but it doesn’t
necessarily isn’t the only reason they’ve got a certain illness because there could be other social reasons that they always buy McDonald’s you mean you know I’m not picking on McDonald’s out I’ll eat McDonald’s anyway but it’s
00:48:24,600 it’s kind there will be social factors that will make people more likely to
be or less likely to to be ill in certain situation and it the cause and effect
of something involved in that isn’t necessarily the cause it’s just a correlation and I always try to talk about whenever the statistics
00:48:44,440 shown question that is is it correlation or is it cause an effect because if
you don’t then that matter time the amount of times that I will start drinking red wine and then stop drinking red wine and then start
drinking red wine and stop it because of the different health through it benefits or
00:49:04,200 poor health scenarios that keep getting talked about does does the fact
that you live in the Mediterranean country and eat a Mediterranean diet
mean you better or is it because there’s lots more sunshine yeah that’s the main reason yes that’s also if someone really has a
00:49:20,920 an egg in illness or something or a skin disease or something I think a beautiful device of a doctor once was yeah just relocate to another
country to see if the things improve in this person said why yeah but
you need to relocate let’s say go at least I don’t know five thousand miles away yeah so
00:49:40,200 because maybe you had a total different diet the total different climate
will finally solve your problems there’s something we are overlooking here because with medication sometimes you cannot help this person
or something so I think that’s also a beautiful thing we don’t know why but you
00:49:54,760 need to get out of this environment with all the variables here and
maybe it’s the air quality maybe it’s the the dust in the air who knows so
that’s an interesting in their interesting approach and that also yeah
brings me actually to the to the next chapter which is work smarter not
00:50:12,440 harder because many people sometimes get to a certain position for them due to their hard work and the key is actually especially with technology which allows us to work way smarter and there’s a little
game I do with with with with with large audiences also but also with with
00:50:32,360 smaller executive teams or something that I asked them to come up with synonyms for a word as a customer and I asked them to come up
with a synonym for a word customer it can be a student or a patient or a
client and there are different ways to look at that and then I asked them okay please now
00:50:52,520 come up with at least 21 in small groups of two to three people come up with 21 synonyms for the word customer because in different
sectors they use different words and different approaches we can learn
from that and then people start to think and they start to write down and after about
00:51:08,200 10 seconds I asked people okay you’re there now everybody has 21 synonyms and people look at me what now already 10 seconds it’s impossible and then of course it’s easily possible because young
people will do it nearly instantaneously in the centeniously they just grab out a smartphone and look
00:51:25,160 for synonyms customer there we have puff normally they’re done within
seven seconds and then all these other in general the audience that I
speak to are senior managers and blah blah blah and they are oh yeah
yeah dude I do the hard work okay the reason why these people are in these positions is
00:51:41,960 because we’re working hard our whole career and they are finally at
least somehow rewarded for that but this century and these challenges
we are facing now really require to work smarter so yeah and then so many tools as well now that that whole thing of that synonymy thing draws you back again what
00:52:05,800 we’re talking before is a hundred years ago 200 years ago 300 years ago someone inventes a print impress suddenly you don’t need the
storytelling you don’t need that as much because the storytelling for
some groups is there so storytelling within different social groups will have
00:52:22,200 lessened and also knowledge is able to pass around much quicker
people educated and then it goes to your encyclopedia and if you can
afford encyclopedia you’ve got all the knowledge you can have a need surely in there but that also means you’ve you you stop having to remember that go to the
00:52:40,280 guru or whatever so it changes the society doesn’t it and then like you
say with google and things like that it’s a case of why do you need to remember all these facts what’s that the first you didn’t need you
needed the book you needed to go on the training on it etc but now you don’t even need that do
00:52:56,520 you need the youtube video and I got a youtube video to fix something
no and that that’s my first thing how do I fix this I jump on to youtube I don’t go and get my readers digest DIY manual to work out to do it anymore while some of that’s still valid and I’ve looked at it but generally there’s some
00:53:14,040 somebody on youtube showed me how do pretty much anything I want
to repair yeah yeah I think you’re probably decommissioned in nuclear
power stations is probably the only thing that you can find that out to do and whereas everything else it’s there’s someone who’s done it just because they wanted
00:53:28,520 shandt wanted to have and I’m pretty sure it’s also available but then probably on a dark net so yeah yeah yeah yeah maybe so yeah and
that’s true all skills virtually for all skills I think youtube is the primary channel now but for some other areas and maybe also yeah reflection
00:53:48,200 philosophy there are some areas which are not really that super
suitable I guess by a video thing but skills for all skills and little physical
problem solving things it’s all it’s for youtube is the is a major educator
there yeah and all those tools ago and it’s a newer tool and again you
00:54:10,280 you kind of think it started off of a cat falling over or whatever and that
was the main thing that people watching youtube for and now it’s a as
you say it’s a massive educational tool and all of these tools and then it becomes a case of and you talk about education about how we encourage people
00:54:27,320 to critique it’s that point of there sometimes you’re getting our children to learn something to pass an exam which actually if they needed to
know that exactly what you said click on the internet what’s the answer to this what how do I mathematics yeah you just speak to you
00:54:50,920 smart device and ask it to do the multiplication for you yeah and last but
not not saying we shouldn’t do any of that testing and bringing people
on the capability they get to the point where the soon things you go we
don’t need to do that anymore you don’t need to waste your brain power
00:55:05,640 doing it because we’ve we’ve outsourced that to google yeah or
whatever it is or whatever it is yeah yeah and of course that there are
still some some drawbacks of course because we still need to have this
knowledge somewhere also if if the power cuts out or if the I don’t know how did the DNS
00:55:27,320 servers are taken down or something so it’s it’s good to have it and I think more should go there but we also need certain backup systems
that we don’t use there’s the accesses cut off because then yeah then suddenly we are a virtual zombie so you can maybe write beautiful poetry or do
00:55:49,480 fantastic philosophical things but at the end yeah people also need to survive because we need to have food and vegetables somehow so so
there’s a little bit of a balance there yeah that’s true that’s one thing I always say come near come near apocalypse me and my gant chart aren’t going to
00:56:03,560 be much use yeah and unless this people are going to listen to me and
me organizing which I can do sometimes other than that I’ve got I don’t
think I’ve got any particularly discernible good skills except for maybe being stubborn that’s bad yeah yeah okay you can imagine so moving on then what’s
00:56:23,480 that what’s that fourth fifth chapter we are now in the fifth year the
orange arrow here everything is Lego so to really look at the world in a
modular view not as a rigid view hey a wall with bricks and mortar is
literally a rigid wall so you should look at the world and also your business and
00:56:44,280 other environments as just a construction with Lego blocks so modular so you decompose things you take them apart you throw some bricks out you grab break from somewhere else and you build up this new
reality and if you come to that mindset then nearly everything is Lego then everything becomes
00:57:03,000 flexible even from processes the way you deal with flows the way you deal with people maybe also in many cases you have two options you have people who are fully employed somewhere or you have
freelancers well actually if we are more fine-grained in modularity we could also say everybody I don’t
00:57:26,360 know is connected one day a week and for the rest they are flexible
workforce and maybe that there’s also a balanced there there are way more things that we can play with way more bricks that we can play
with and each or groups of people will favor that kind of combination and other people
00:57:42,680 will favor that kind of combination so there also needs to be not such a
regular way of looking at things so that’s where everything is Lego is about excellent that’s a good accept to we had a one of my previous guests who works with serious play Lego serious play yeah he’s
00:58:04,680 talked about that and how he uses that in the project management over in there and he came along and did a demonstration to our project
management community in the the account time on and it was difficult it
was remote so it was like this and it was a challenge but he had four
00:58:24,600 people who were doing it and they kind of given the coaching they went away and did it came back and then talked about what it was like in lockdown and the the way that they used the Lego to describe what
lockdown had meant to them was so as I think it’s kind of a little bit off topic but it was
00:58:47,400 the difference in the way they used it to describe but the the flip chart conversation you talked about earlier in the same conversation with
someone who might have scribbled on a flip chart it brought it so much
more to life yeah it was brilliant because it was just sat there and it was I some of the
00:59:05,880 people talking about it it’s kind of bringing a tear to your eye a little bit
but you wouldn’t have got that from saying what the flip yeah still do
with a flip chart or or scribbling or whatever and I think that that I can
see from that where you can sit there and go right okay so here’s our business
00:59:22,600 process and Simon talked about business process reengineering and stuff like that and using your Lego is going right demonstrate the process build your process and you build it and then you realize
actually what’s that actually if we did this this and this you can move that around or plug
00:59:37,800 it and it’s as you say you’re really building any I love that concept of of
using that visual kick the Lego’s brilliant for visualization of every one
it’s a beautiful metaphor and yeah yeah and also I also use Lego series play for more emotional kind of conversations if people are
00:59:58,040 underperforming or whatever it’s great to have a team build in your own
organization and then also the relationships have some people have all
the little mini-figs are close to each other you have a close-knit team but
sometimes also some of these little mini-fingers are further away from the
01:00:14,040 cause or from the team why is that and then you can have a discussion
about what’s built instead of saying hey this guy with a beard or this
bald guy blah blah blah and that makes it less personal and then it’s
easier to talk about also highly emotional things so I think Lego’s here and Lego as
01:00:30,760 as a metaphor is wonderful on so many different levels and that’s also
what I indicate in that chapter yeah and then the last thing the heart
before we get to the tools and the gear the heart is find the X factor and initially this chapter was called go from plus to X so combinations should
01:00:52,680 just not should not just be additions so a and b should not be c no it’s
like really looking for a click for wow there is a real X factor to this
solution this really nails it down this really increases adoption this really
yeah this really makes it elegant and there are so many different ways
01:01:14,520 that you can add an X factor to whatever it is that you’re doing why is a
I don’t know a bakery in the streets doing so much better than other
bakeries nearby it’s probably in the way they do it sometimes it’s of
course the quality of the bread or something but supposing that virtually
01:01:32,440 everybody is able to reach the same physical product quality of bread
then it’s normally the way it’s delivered and maybe it’s the personalized service maybe it’s the personal touch or something so what’s the X
factor why this little shop is so much better than all the other ones same thing as
01:01:47,880 why is Nike so much more successful compared to all other sneaker
brands are the ads boom I think so there are different ways that it was
political engagement it’s marketing it’s the whole the whole concept that
they have there and that’s interesting to see because that clearly adds an
01:02:03,800 X factor to whatever is happening there and that’s where my last
chapter comes down to that the secret ingredient is always love so how
can you get people to love what they do because that will radiate out to
the processes and the services and the businesses that are run there and then
01:02:21,960 finally the last chapter is check your gear so to really be able to download tools and stuff to really become a better idea DJ pretty
fantastic I think so obviously that’s a there’s a great deal of rich information that you’ve shared there and hopefully everyone’s can
01:02:45,560 kind of be looking to grab a copy of it when is it is it’s next month isn’t it sometime? yeah next month it’s coming out apparently the publisher
has decided on a staged gate approach apparently the the Benelix and
international and international means the whole of the world except the US
01:03:04,360 strangely don’t ask me why it has to do something with shipping the
books I guess to the Amazon fulfillment centers worldwide or something
clearing that with customs anyway so next month which is mid of March
it will be available in the whole of Europe and Asia apparently and also already
01:03:26,600 via another website shipable to the US and the US a little bit later I think
end of June or something so okay and that’s it’s on pre-order now isn’t it
as well? it’s on pre-order now so on my website or on idadj.com simple as that idadj.com then you hit
01:03:44,440 to my website and there’s a pre-order thing already so yeah we are
slowly slowly again I’m really anxious to see what the world what the
book is going to do in the real world because with all my other books it’s beautiful to see how many people pick it up somewhere and of course book has
01:04:03,800 its own life but it’s fantastic that a small portion of these people actually
reach out to me which is always great to get some feedback outside of Amazon reviews and everything but people actually take the time to
figure out your email address or something on LinkedIn and write a little little message
01:04:18,520 and that’s also actually how I ended up at NASA because Omar Hatamle the Chief Innovation Officer of NASA picked up my book somewhere not invented here and he says yeah we are interesting and
interested as NASA to learn more or to share more cross-sector so can you come and speak
01:04:39,480 and we’re going to build a whole conference around that cross-industry innovation summit so absolutely great so it takes you to absolutely
unexpected places and it is fast name when you sit there and you think
you’ve got NASA and if someone said name and in an organization that has to be
01:04:57,320 innovative yeah surely NASA is going to be one and it’s going to be
greater it is going to be the first one of trips off your tongue isn’t it and
obviously it’s again it’s that thing of self-awareness in some ways that whilst you can be innovative you can always be better at it
01:05:14,440 and guessing that’s where the that’s come from isn’t you could sit on your heels and say well we’ve landed on the moon come on that’s pretty good do we need to go any further we sent some stuff to Mars you know and and and then you look at what they’ve done with the
01:05:31,480 super-severance and and the there’s I saw some of the images coming
back from there the other day and it is just astounding what over the
years while that organization has managed to see it’s it’s it’s incredible because when I got the invitation first I thought it was a hoax
01:05:48,360 I just a spam or something and then I actually looked up this guy on LinkedIn said this can’t be true come on this must be spam what was happening and the guy was real so I sent him a message on LinkedIn
and he says yes I sent you an email and I was like why it’s the real deal and that’s also
01:06:03,160 when I got nervous like what am I gonna tell people at NASA so the same feeling you just described what am I gonna tell them and so
finally I just went in there and gave my normal speech and they were really and from the moment I arrived there they were so nice and I really would have thought that
01:06:22,120 they would be more like hey hey we are the people sending rockets into
space and everything but they are very down to down to earth nice nice
way of saying they’re really really friendly and also mission driven and
with mission driven I mean not just a Mars mission or a space mission but really
01:06:41,560 they really see them as a non-meditary which is which is absolutely crucial there and global organization to really help the world make
better sense of itself because they also say we have NASA we’re really
taken outside look at the world and we see this little the pill blue dot we see it
01:07:01,800 there literally and that’s what also yeah virtually every kind of yeah color
race everybody is working there it’s absolutely fascinating to see the
multitude of people there and and they were also doing all kinds of cool
stuff with robot X and you name it and they had an incredible budget
01:07:22,120 decrease of course over the last let’s say 40 years their budget has decreased considerably so they need to be way more creative so it’s
yeah it’s absolutely really nice one of my most interesting fascinating
clients and also because I’m an engineer by by education and this is
01:07:43,080 also because my father always thought critical about how creativity and
innovation in business what’s the real need for that because he was he
was also always a truck repair guy and salesman so he built a beautiful
business with a lot of people and he said yeah what is that creativity
01:08:00,840 innovation that’s so sure but since NASA invited me he’s totally he’s
totally convinced that innovation is crucial for the world so that’s
absolutely brilliant so that was also a personal personal little thing I got
out of there fun yeah excellent excellent so I know we’ve been running
01:08:18,840 sort of nearly an hour now with our chat and I just didn’t delve into part of the conversation I wanted to talk about was about innovation in
project management but if there is thinking about the whole innovation concept and and in project delivery and project management what would you say
01:08:39,160 would to my to our audience here we’re talking to guys are guys and
girls out there actually delivering projects maybe delivering innovation projects maybe not if they things that they could do to a couple of takeaways on what they would you would say as a project leader what would you do about whether it’s
01:08:58,840 embedding it in your team or yourself doing it and being innovative I
think one of the crucial things is is to focus on the not not to focus
actually not to focus too much on the what because your whole process
is geared towards the what whatever you’re implementing I don’t know SAP R4HANA or
01:09:22,200 something whatever you’re doing or you’re implementing a new logistical system or a new new approach or a new whatever you’re implementing so the what is normally I hope within scoping and
everything reasonably okay defined the key is to figure out the how and the how is also
01:09:39,800 how we interact as humans especially now in all these virtual times here are way more alternatives on how people can work together remotely so there’s a world to yeah to explore there on how you organize yourselves in the book I also give some examples have for leaders it’s crucial to not
01:09:58,440 look at your screen but to look at the camera I’m trying I’m trying not to
even know I like looking at you I try not to focus too much on your face but to focus more on the camera your team’s broad will notice that
directly because it really has a more feeling that you’re actually looking at them instead
01:10:14,760 of your eyes slightly offered that’s a micro tip there also especially now
all these projects are run remotely how do you do that also when she
gets physically together again one of the other examples are given in
the book is yeah try to limit the number of meetings but go for wonder walks
01:10:36,040 and I’d also describe the rules on how you do a wonder walk because if
you walk it’s it’s also easy to discuss some things in smaller teams but
you can also have a structure that you start with larger team in your
break-up with subject matter experts or something and you walk up with these small
01:10:52,200 groups of people and then you come back in a large circle and you can
even do that corona safely which can still hear each other one one and a half meters away so there are different ways of the how how you
organize yourself and I think that’s crucial for all project leaders to figure out
01:11:08,920 what can I do differently in the way we operate it because the what’s is hard to change too much but the how there is a world to begin there
brilliant fantastic so if people want to get hold of you what’s the best way to get hold of you we know when you get the book idea DJs that
01:11:32,440 the idea DJ.com or just google ramon fillings and you end up at ramon
fillings.com and then the whole world will open there so brilliant as
simple as that but the shorter term is indeed idea DJ.com and then you
will dive straight into the book and you’re thinking free tools to download
01:11:53,400 and stuff so yeah to really help people yeah come up with more beautiful combinations because yeah we all need to figure out new things together yeah brilliant well thank you Ramon it’s been a
fascinating talk as I knew it would be and good luck with the book thank you no doubt we’ll keep
01:12:17,000 in touch and talk again so thank you again I would love to hear it I’m
gonna make one more picture before you go now you’ll because this is too good to be true I’m gonna send it to you because now I have the
whole the whole setup in in place it’s great see you actually fascinating speaking
01:12:34,280 hope to catch you soon and send me your your address your physical mailing address because then I’m gonna send you the book because I
already have a few copies the promotion promotional copies so I will ship you promotional copies brilliant thanks very much
01:12:59,240 well I hope you enjoyed that interview with Ramon I do think this is a
really interesting stuff is what’s nice surprising stuff in there as well his
book I’ll put a link in the show notes and if you are going to get it if you there is also a link on the website nojocreases.com if you
01:13:22,600 click on the link in there it’s an ammonot on the social link and I get a
little kickback not a massive kickback but a little kickback from Amazon
as part of that which helps fund the future of this podcast mentioned in
that I think I think if there is anyone out there who wants to support the podcast
01:13:48,680 sponsorship would be lovely and your support is critical if you have
enjoyed the podcast if you can give us a review on the platform of your
choice that you’re using if you or all of them if you fancy it if you’ve got access to all of them and you think it’s great five star reviews everywhere
01:14:11,160 will be lovely helps other people discover it and increases the number
of people get the value out of what we’re trying to produce here the
other ways of supporting obviously as I said the Amazon social links
are all of the guests that we’ve had on there I’ve tried to when they’ve got books
01:14:34,600 out or anything I’ve got links on the shop page on the website and
which all I’m is on links so again that helps if you want to buy one of my
books that helps and again you can find them their Patreon page so the
lunch pm on the Patreon platform sharing the podcast and anything on social
01:15:00,680 media would be fabulous too because your recommendation is worth a
million efforts and so it was a finally just come back come back next
week have a listen again to the next episode will be next week will be in a couple weeks and yeah that’s it thank you very much and have a fabulous day
01:15:27,000 I think I’m gonna have some breakfast and then maybe eat it sat in the
sunshine I think I’ll have to wrap up books still a bit chilly cheers next
week well it’s goodbye from me Nigel Kreese and it’s goodbye from him the Sunday lunch pm goodbye
01:15:45,800 [Music]