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00:00:00,000 [Music] Hi and welcome to the Sunday Lunch Project Manager podcast
for Sunday, the 19th of February 2023. This is your host, Nightcreece, and this week I’ve got
00:00:21,360 Stefan Weedner, the Psychological Safety Guide. So I’m conscious I’ve not done a bit of a news update for a few weeks. Things have been a bit busy so I’ve been focusing on getting the content out to you
00:00:43,280 rather than um, wittering away, telling you about what’s going on in my
life. Um, and to be quite frank, this has just been work-whip work and
family family and all that sort of stuff. A few interesting things going on around, uh,
00:01:01,040 helping out and being a bit more social compared to what we have
done over the last few years. So it’s been great, it’s great meeting friends and going to do a few different things. And this week we’re
planning this weekend in fact we’re ahead enough to go on so this is a short one too.
00:01:15,680 And um, yeah, so things I mean, I’ve been playing with chat T-PT, it
seems to be a big thing out there at the moment certainly on LinkedIn,
a lot of things about how it could affect us well within the Project Management Arena and recently I have just been playing with it, um,
00:01:32,960 kind of self fulfilling sort of thing of um, trying to write a, um, an
extension for Chrome to export the chat T-PT words in there for another
project I mean playing with and you know what, I’m absolutely standard.
00:01:50,240 Um, whilst I haven’t got the thing to work because I think there’s some of my JavaScript knowledge in a few rules that you need to obey
without aren’t clear, um, which isn’t, isn’t as bright. But essentially I’ve asked it to help me do it
00:02:04,320 and it’s given me the code and it stays constant because if I get stuck I
can ask about something that else and it does kind of redo it, um, which
is thoroughly astounding to be quite honest and I can see where as we
start moving into, um, certainly within the IT industry, um, the use of these tools,
00:02:22,800 the use of, um, um, um, um, to generate code and then tweak code will
change the dynamic around what we’re doing and how we’re testing it, I
suppose is you get to the point where you’ve got a piece of code and
you should be able to tell chat T-PT to, uh, derive a load of tests and hours
00:02:41,760 to exercise all the routes through it which again I can see a massive
saving and a massive power to the other or a testing ability. Um, I can
see it, um, revolutionising stuff but again still not going to take away that human bit of, um, finesse that’s going to be needed there.
00:02:59,920 So what’s your space on playing around with a couple things with it
and, uh, you know, how I get on? Uh, in that arena. Um, I’ve got quite a
few interviews in bag and a few interviews lined up as well so we’ve got some great podcast guests, uh, Stefan, today, oh, oh, Stefan, I’m a apology because I said
00:03:17,280 his name wrong at the end of the last show, uh, apology, Stefan, um,
and, um, yeah, it’s, uh, yeah, it’s, it’s everything’s going well. Um, and,
uh, I hope, uh, if I do urge you all to have a quick look at this chat to
you because we’ll, I think it will touch us all, um, you’ve just point where I was chatting
00:03:36,720 with my daughter trying to get her to eat her pop tart’s other breakfast
series out of the, uh, pop tart in the, the other morning, um, and I
asked, uh, chat to you, right, me a poem to get her to do it which kind of
don’t know whether it helped or do it or not, ate the food but it was a quite
00:03:54,720 interesting experiment too. Quite an impressive little poem too. Anyway, I’ll let you get on and listen to Stefan Weedner and, uh, all of my
psychological safety. Cheers then. Bye. I am delighted today to be able to welcome Stefan Weedner to the show. Stefan is a psychological
00:04:17,600 safety expert whose career is focused on developing sustainable high performance leaders, teams and organisations. His passion for
unleashing the collective potential of people has led him to co-found new mill and the web’s largest network of independent life coaches,
00:04:36,000 skillsetter.com, the deliberate practice platform for interpersonal skills
and Zerango.com, the psychological safety training experts. Stefan has been guests on speaker for ACE Tech, CEO Roundtable, Scrummast Toolbox podcast, building psychological strength podcasts and many other
00:04:53,360 audiences interested in psychology, business and technology. His writing has been featured in Forbes, Entrepreneur and other popular
publications. He’s married with a couple of children and enjoys quality
time outdoors, hiking, biking, camping and reading. So welcome to the show Stefan.
00:05:09,840 I’d you all thanks for having me. It’s a pleasure. It’s good. Tell us a tell
your audience a little bit about you and where you come from. We got a
little bit of a taste of there from your bio. Yeah, sure. So almost 15, more
than 15 years ago, I bumped into a friend of mine. We were previously
00:05:30,480 roommates and a mutual friend were visiting and said, “Hey, you got to
connect with Kurt. He’s doing this e-coaching thing.” So at the time, I
was going through coach training and we chatted and lo and behold, we started this business called newme.com and that was our first entrepreneurial
00:05:49,600 journey together and we’ve been working together ever since. So we’ve
been over that time really interested in coaching. We’ve been interested in not just coaching, but why does coaching work? So we weren’t, we
were really curious about that and that led us down these other paths of exploring
00:06:07,360 psychological safety, of exploring counseling skills applied in various arenas and why the best counselors are the best counselors and what
we can do about it and that led us to the development of skill set or this software platform. So the whole time we’ve been really keen on how multiple humans
00:06:28,000 working together, whether it’s in pairs or whether it’s in teams can get
better outcomes than just individuals working on their own. That’s kind of been our playground, if you will. And love sharing that kind of
information our experiences, our learnings with folks around the globe so that we can
00:06:44,400 make a better world for everybody. Brilliant, brilliant. It’s interesting
when you say there about how getting people working together. I know, and I quote these guys quite a lot on manager tools, their podcast. There is a comment they made that if you’ve got two people in the same state,
00:07:06,080 you will have potential for conflict, even regardless of how big the state is because humans interact with each other and sometimes it’s good,
sometimes it’s bad, but there’s always a chance of it going bad, isn’t it?
Absolutely. And so what we want to do is not avoid the bad, but how do you take a bad
00:07:23,600 and make a good, bring the positive out of it because if everything is just good and what we might term as polite all the time, that’s not
necessarily good either because then people are just biting their tongue
and they’re, you know, not saying what they really think. There’s a big gap
00:07:40,320 between what they’re saying, what they’re thinking. Yeah, I think that, and that immediately, I hear the comment about being authentic and
kind of being true to yourself, you see a lot of comments we’re only
doing and things, similar things to that and it’s kind of when you are living
00:07:57,040 you’re not true self all the time. It does become quite wearing, we’re
wearing, entire, isn’t it? And being in an organization or in a relationship even that you can actually say what you think without massive ramifications, without fear of it being held against you is really
00:08:19,520 important, isn’t it? Yeah, and that Nigel right there is the definition of
psychological safety essentially, that ability to speak up, say what’s on
your mind without that fear that there’ll be some sort of car sequence when you do speak up. Yeah, all right, yeah, because it’s a, to me,
00:08:38,560 it’s a fairly new term. I’m not sure when the first time you came across
it, maybe it’s a long time ago and it’s quite often like these things, they
don’t pop up, they bubble up into the social psyche at certain points, the pen more and more to going on, is it something that I’m guessing, usually
00:08:56,640 these sort of things are right here about them, they’ve been way back
into 50s and 60s where they started or something like that. So, but what
tell us a little bit of background on psychological safety and kind of
expand on what it is? If you look at the academic research, I think the first
00:09:11,920 sighting of psychological safety is around 1980 and and then in 1999, Dr. A. N. E. Emminson, Harvard professor with the business school there, she developed an assessment to measure psychological safety
and has been really exploring that area ever since. So, I, she’s the one that’s really
00:09:34,320 popularizing the term and I’d say the one, if there was one thing that
helped psychological safety get off the ground and really grow in the
minds of the average consumer or the average individual out there in
business, it was Google’s project Aristotle. So, they did a big study,
00:09:55,120 multi-year study to explore what makes an effective team and that
project resulted in the finding that the best teams in Google, and they analyzed 180 teams, the best teams in Google had the highest degree
of psychological safety and similarly the worst teams at Google had the lowest degree of
00:10:17,120 psychological safety. So, it was the number one correlating factor and
that took them quite some time to discover because initially they looked
at 250 factors that they thought might correlate with effectiveness within
a team and none of those factors correlated. So, there wasn’t a very
00:10:35,120 strong correlation at all. They looked at the size of the team, the
number of members, the age of the members, the diversity, the number
of different types of individuals represented in that team, the size of the
team, etc. and nothing correlated until they came across psychological safety.
00:10:52,480 So, I find that really fascinating and of course, Google being the most
data-driven company in the world arguably helps give it a whole lot of
credibility in the validity. Yeah, that’s interesting, because it’s interesting, there was no other ones that were correlating with it as well,
00:11:13,920 as well as when you get no other correlation, you can relate that to B
causality because quite a lot of these studies things, you’ve got a lot of
correlation but not necessarily causality. It’s funny I find when seeing the phrase and then at the immediate thought as I said of what I thought
00:11:33,520 it meant. Immediately went, well, yeah, it’s obvious that if you feel
comfortable in your organisation, you feel that you can just be you you
are, it makes so much difference. So, it’s okay, it’s one of those ones
will do, yeah, but then it’s the usual thing, it’s really obvious but not obvious until
00:11:54,640 you’ve looked at it, because it’s absolutely senseless, doesn’t it? Well,
and that’s what happened to me when I first read about it. I read the fearless organisation, the book authored by Amy Emonson, and it was
largely a response to the Google study because her work was cited and so she thought, “Gosh, I need
00:12:13,440 to write a book on this because there’s perhaps some, she wanted to spell some myths or some misunderstandings about the concept and
that was the motivation for her writing that initial book.” And where was
I going with that? I lost track of my, “Oh, Nigel, you want to have a question?”
00:12:36,080 I’m sorry. Yeah, I think you were talking about the fearless organisation,
the reason she wrote that. And I think we would first talk them in the
fact that the correlation of that data, the causality, and all that sort of
stuff. And I think it’s saying, yeah, right. I can imagine, because I,
00:12:52,960 as an example, one on the book side, I’ve kind of scribbled together. There was one part of it around returning to work on the other interruptions. And there was a study that I saw cited all over the
internet, same correlation, something that was 20 minutes to get back. When you’ve been interrupted,
00:13:13,280 so if you get a ping on your phone or you ping on your screen, your Slack channel, whatever, that you take about 20 minutes to get back
into the same flow state. And it’s really interesting, because that was
cited from this website, from this website, to this website, and all over the place.
00:13:27,360 And I’ve kind of read it and kind of conducts really, that makes sense.
It’s sensible, of course. And then I was putting together a presentation. And I drew from that the need to reduce it. Notifications and
interruptions, which is still a valid concept sort of the basis of what I’d
00:13:43,680 written was fine. Interestingly enough, when I did even more, a little bit
more of research ready for a presentation I was doing, I read the actual
reports. I’ve got a hold of a copy of the actual study that they’d based on. And nowhere in it did it say the thing that had been drawn from across
00:14:05,040 the internet. It was, they’d conflated a number of different things together. And I could imagine that in Amy’s scenario, if they were
quoting her research, that she’s gone, right, okay, it can go from one
website. It’s, as they call it, the Chinese whispers, it used to be called,
00:14:20,160 whatever, it goes from one person, takes a bit of it, adds their bit, and it
can, it can pull her off, proliferate, if I had teeth, I’d build say that, it can
create a wrong impression of what it was, isn’t it, be it attested to her? Yeah, I think that’s precisely right, especially with
00:14:39,440 the concept in the social sciences like this, like psychological satia, it can be so easily misinterpreted or misunderstood or viewed as one
thing when it’s actually something else. And so, dispelling those myths and those misunderstandings, I think, was part of her motivation, absolutely.
00:14:56,640 Yeah, yeah, it’s interesting, I’m going to, I will stick a link in the show
notes to that book, add it to one of my ever growing list of things to
read. So, thinking about psychological satian, and you’re talking about coaching and things like that, and I can understand
00:15:15,200 that in order, in those, we talk about cultures, we talk about big
organizations. I imagine that when you talk about one to one coaching
and life coach kind of stuff, the the need for that psychological safety, and I’ve been through some counselling in the last couple of
00:15:36,720 years, some mental health counselling, and I was slightly different, but
being able to feel safe in that environment is probably where it starts,
isn’t it, with those sort of things, those one to one relationships? Yeah, absolutely. Coaching is built on trust. If there’s not trust,
00:15:59,040 if there’s not rapport between the coach and the individual receiving the
coaching or participating in the coaching rather, then you might as well
not even embark on that journey. So, we think it’s absolutely essential. And rapport is generally built with a little bit of time,
00:16:16,480 and with some conversation, so it’s not necessarily there, the instant
coaching starts, and yet, we try our best with our organization because we have such a broad network of coaches all over the world. We
always try to make sure that we’re recommending a really good fitting coach for whatever
00:16:36,400 individual is receiving or participating in the coaching. So, so that we
can make sure that there’s as quick a rapport as possible. For example,
if someone is a project manager, you might want to be working with a coach that has some experience as a project manager. So, they can relate to the life
00:16:53,920 of a project manager, right? It makes sense. And also, you might want
to look at your industry, if you’re a project manager and construction
versus high-tech versus health care, I mean, those are all fairly different domains, and the challenges of each project manager in a different domain is
00:17:09,040 going to change. It’s going to be different. So, we always try to match
folks up in a way that has the rapport and the trust built as quickly and
as efficiently as possible. Do you do with that? Do you also look at depending on what the need of the individual is as well?
00:17:26,240 It’s kind of a point of point, if you like, because I joke that a collection of
project managers is delay, really. So, it’s kind of, we get together as a group of project managers and we’ve got, we kind of moan about how
hard it is to be a project manager and how difficult it is to get people
00:17:47,680 to do something. I mean, there’s a tone there and sometimes you can
be in a little echo chamber. So, is this kind of scenarios where you look
for someone that would challenge those assumptions, if you like? Yeah, that’s a good point. You don’t want to have two people just commiserating
00:18:06,720 together and colluding, if you will. The other thing we look for is we look
at the individual and ask ourselves, ask the individual, the organization,
how can this person improve? What are the deliverables, the behavior
changes that you’re really looking for for this particular individual? For example,
00:18:27,040 you might have a project manager, super skill, knows the business, knows everything, but comes across as really abrasive. They have
really direct forms of communication. They can be really short with their words and the way they communicate and that comes across a certain way and it’s not ill-intended.
00:18:48,000 It just, it is the way they’ve learned how to communicate and so we want to improve those communication skills. So, we would want to make sure we’re finding a coach that is skilled in that arena, has experienced working with individuals who are “abrasive” or “challenging” or “direct”
00:19:03,440 how, whatever words you want to use to describe them so that they can
soften their, how they’re being perceived or alternatively the other way
around. You might have someone who is perhaps too agreeable in their
nature, too nice, if you will, and needs to become a little bit more direct with their
00:19:22,480 communication. So, and everything in between. And so again, we’re
just trying to find the good match. Not just on, hey, do you have the
same experience as this project manager, but can you actually support them and help them with what they’re trying to achieve? Yeah, make sense because I look
00:19:38,560 across the domain and the organization I’m in who’ve got several in the, even in the small part where and we’ve got several hundred project managers and across the organization several thousand and every one
of them is different. There are different styles, very different styles in there and
00:19:55,200 it goes back to some of the stuff I’ve been on about on this show many
times about the disc profiling and looking at that and you can, you see
where those skills are for different people. And it’s, I suppose some of those behavior traits can lead to, and I think in about me,
00:20:13,200 is a project manager and other people is a project manager. If you are
delivering the message, whether it be to your customer, whether it be to
your team or whatever. If you are abrasive, as you say, that can come across as some people would not
00:20:32,880 feel comfortable to say what they want to say to you in that scenario, be open and be psychological. So, and then I suppose on the other flip
side, if somebody is being overly timid, that may be a sign that either you in the organization or the organization is
00:20:53,680 putting fear into someone, but again, it’s like that whole thing about
body language, it’s clustering, isn’t it? Well, it’s not one thing that is the thing, it’s, you have to take a number of data points there to say, actually that, that, and that all ties up to this.
00:21:07,040 As you, I remember the whole thing, I was saying if someone’s folding
their arms in a meeting, just because that’s a signal to say they’re not
interested, it may also mean they’re cold. It’s just picking out those
items, isn’t it? And I just, yeah, then that’s a, I mean, that’s a good point,
00:21:25,520 because that’s ultimately your analysis here is ultimately what God asked to be exploring and really interested in the concept of psychological safety, because we are conducting all these coaching
engagements with individuals that were trying to improve their behavior and their
00:21:40,240 impact and how they’re being perceived by others. And ultimately all of
them, if it wasn’t explicitly stated, were trying to build psychological
safety. They were trying to create environments where their, their team members felt like they were safe, they could speak up, they could challenge
00:21:56,560 each other and ultimately be more successful as a team. So when I read the book, the fearless organization, all these connections fit
together, it’s like, oh, yes, okay, this is the thing I’ve been looking for.
This is what we’re really trying to achieve with all of these coaching engagements,
00:22:14,160 is we’re trying to foster psychological safety and organizations. Yeah,
that was a real light bulb moment for me. Yeah, it sounds, it sounds
interesting, because it’s, it’s, it’s funny how you just do things and I’ve
been on some training recently where we’re doing certain things in our team and this is
00:22:32,880 advising you to do it under, and, and how to do it and look and go, well,
yeah, we’re doing all of these things and it’s about, and it probably, I’m
quite, nicely, it’s kind of, it was born out of some of the work that happened during COVID and when we were remote from each other and we still are very much
00:22:52,560 remote from each other and love organizations now, it, it comes up
with, like, how do we, it’s easy to check and see if you’re in the same
office and you’re all there together, you get a feel for the team, you’d
walk the floor, is it management by walking around as they used to call it and you’d, you’d get a
00:23:12,400 sense of what the, the rouse like and what, whether there’s a problem,
etc, but then that was all taken away from us and given us this situation
where we had to work out, so we had to put things in place and I know
one of the things we did with the team I was working with, we set up a WhatsApp group,
00:23:32,080 that’s an example, and first thing in the morning, somebody posted a gift or a silly thing on the WhatsApp group and good morning and
everyone good morning, so, and we all, and actually for that, for that
first period of time with us in the UK for that first three, two or three months, that was so important
00:23:51,840 because I felt part of that team at that, that, that, I had that, and looking
back now I realised how much, how important just that one thing of the
equivalent of walking into the office say good morning in that time of
uncertainty, just having, just having everyone say hi, it was, it was a great thing to do in it,
00:24:11,200 I think it, it reflected on the bond between the team that we had there,
which was really good and it was a reflection of them and then wanting
to, to stay connected with each other. And I suppose from a project,
and we talked about it earlier, from project management point of view, the challenges
00:24:26,240 that we have, is this changing to what people call the new normal, the
hybrid working, the remote working, whatever you want to call it, and on the assumption that we have been maintaining a reasonable
psychological safety when we were face to face, I get the feeling there’s probably been
00:24:47,840 a big dip, we would just say that’s true, I don’t know, I’m guessing
there’s, there’s stuff that you’ve researched and that experience with
people around how that’s going. Well that reminds me of the early days of psychological safety, so maybe too, of, of, of, of, COVID, the pandemic, about two months
00:25:05,920 in, I reached out to a fellow colleague of mine who is in HR/leadership development at his organization, maybe 1500 people in the organization, however many hundreds of managers, and what he
started doing is just informally reaching out to all of the managers and, and asking them, how are you doing? How’s your team
00:25:27,440 doing? And that was an important question for him, how is your team
doing? And what he said is, he found the results to be rather by modal, in that half of the team managers, when he asked that specific question, how is your team doing? Half of them said, oh, they are stressed, and it’s making me stressed, because
00:25:45,600 they’re asking all these questions, like, is my job on the line here? Are
we ever going to go back to the office? When are we going back to the
office? They had all of these questions, and of course, as the manager,
when everything was completely in flux, they didn’t have the answers, and yet they
00:26:01,040 wanted to be able to provide those answers, so it was causing stress
for everybody. So that’s one half, the other half of the managers, when he asked the question, how is your team doing? The answer was, I don’t know, I’m not sure. And so that was demonstration of psychological safety. So clearly half of
00:26:22,800 the teams felt like they could share and express their frustrations,
concerns, anxiety, stress, and the other half couldn’t. And I think that is
as something that we, or as project managers, team leaders, et cetera,
need to be particularly mindful in this new environment, because it’s easy
00:26:43,040 to misinterpret people’s politeness, if you will, or just, yeah, things are
rosy, as things are actually rosy when they might not, in fact, be rosy for
them, for those individuals. They just might not feel safe enough to be able to express how they’re actually doing. And so that’s a danger. That’s a
00:27:06,320 concern for project managers, because what happens is those people
leave suddenly, suddenly, you’re faced with a resignation letter, and now you have to go back to the drawing board and replace them and
find someone else and introduce them into the team. And that’s costly for the business, costly for the project.
00:27:24,320 And if that happens to you, that’s a sure sign that you need to be checking in with your people, and knowing where they’re at, and how
they’re actually doing. And that’s particularly true when you can’t bump
into them walking down the halls. You can’t see their non-verbals when you’re sitting in a
00:27:42,320 meeting, and you can’t go for lunch with them easily, and just say, “Hey,
how you doing?” Yeah, I think it’s interesting that we have a situation
where it… And I kind of get it with you’ve got your team, and you’ve got your organisation, and I think
00:28:05,120 I’ve kind of talked about before, is that you have teams where I think I try to foster from me, personally, and an open relationship with my team, so that someone can openly talk to me how they feel, and on a regular ones one, it’s kind of like, if I ask them a question,
00:28:27,120 it’s kind of… I try to push them and it’s kind of a “you okay, yeah, I’m
okay, right, tell me about it,” and then I’ll hear something different too,
okay. And I think it’s… It’s maybe it’s not entirely British, but kind of over here in the UK, it’s that
00:28:42,560 default thing to know how you’re doing. I’m fine. Is the kind of default
answer that a lot of people give? But it’s kind of getting behind that and
getting people to be able to sit out, but then I think there’s the other side
of it where the people can feel safe and comfortable with their direct management,
00:29:05,600 their direct, maybe a couple of leaders up, but how does that sort of
higher-archic or distance from you as an individual? Influence the level of psychological safety, and now I’m thinking from Project Manager Point of View, if you’ve got four or five layers down within your organization,
00:29:26,800 with your team, how do you ensure that that, a little like you just said
about that once, and I think that the person reporting to you is creating
that, there’s probably not a two-minute answer, but it’s kind of what… But what’s the difference, and what can we do about it?
00:29:44,640 Well, I think hierarchy definitely matters, right? When there’s a power or
differential, then people will behave differently. So, for example, within
your team, you might have all of your members sitting around the table having a chat, and then as soon as you walk in the room, maybe the chat
00:30:01,280 changes, right? If you’re that… If you’re the person to whom all of these
books directly report, and then if you add another layer of seniority
above that, and one or two or three or four more, that very well could influence psychological safety, and that’s why we really encourage organizations
00:30:21,200 to try to spread psychological safety out through the organization in an
organic matter, and ideally from the top down. So, ideally, you have the
senior leadership really modeling the behavior that you want to see. So, whether it’s… And often, we start with the core values of the
00:30:40,160 organization. What does the organization truly value? And those values
are sometimes just on the wall, but not necessarily being honored or
expressed. And so, we need to align them. And so, it might be around things like transparency, and how does one model the behavior of transparency that you’re looking
00:31:07,360 for? And so, you need to conduct yourself in a certain manner. And
these are really powerful norms. The behaviors that you perform as a leader are going to be looked up to by all of the team members. And those team members are going to be asking themselves, “What’s okay in this environment? How can I
00:31:26,400 operate?” And Nigel, you can probably relate to being in a new position,
in a new company, and what it’s like. And you have all of these antenna
out there kind of going, “Okay, when I have an issue, who do I bring it
up with, and who do I go and talk to, and how can I say that? Do I have to
00:31:42,320 write an email, or can I just walk into their office and talk to them, right?”
These are all the social norms that drive our behavior, and those are the structures and systems that need to be put into place, really
deliberately and intentionally, so that throughout the entire organization,
00:31:59,120 everyone feels like they can speak up. And our definition of
psychological safety is so that everyone in the organization has the courage to speak up. And perhaps even more importantly, the confidence to know that when they do speak up, they will be heard, they will be appreciated,
00:32:16,080 they will be understood. Well, I hope you enjoyed that first part of this
interview with Stefan, and come back next week to listen to Part 2. See you soon. Bye.
00:32:30,160 So this is my final wrap-up every week you’re going to hear this, you’re
going to get bored of it, but you can always click next podcast if so. If
you have enjoyed it, if you’ve listened to this podcast at the end of this show and you think
00:32:57,120 that was great, I’d love to be able to help nide out. There are loads of
ways you can do it. The first and obvious way is to share the podcast, send it out to people. If you know for colleagues or friends who’ve benefit from it, think they’d enjoy it,
00:33:14,960 just send them the link, grab one of the links, send it or send them to www.nideyourcreator.com/ podcasts. That’s
www.nideyourcreator.com/podcasts. And now push them over to a link tree link and it’s got all of the different ways they can consume
00:33:33,840 the podcast. If you are feeling generous and have a big bag of cash,
you could grab a copy of one of my books, obviously they’re available in
all the usual places and print and digital. Again, jump on the website
www.nideyourcreator.com/shop and that will give you a list of all the different ways
00:33:59,840 that you can contribute and grab copies of the book. I also got links to all my guests’ books on there as well where I get a little bit of a kickback from them. If you are of a sporting mind, I have a number through doing some of my judo and running antics. I managed to sue cure a few
00:34:22,640 affiliate links and affiliates there as well. So in there, somewhere in the
sponsors page, there’s links to those as well. So clicking on to those
and grabbing your, if you’re with it, if you’re looking to get super fit, then that would be fabulous as well. I get a little kickback
00:34:41,680 from those. I have a Patreon account, it’s patreon.com/sundaylunchpm.
So again, you can ping something in there by me a coffee or whatever.
And finally, obviously the most important is coming back, coming back, listen again because the more of you than come back, the more
00:35:05,440 visibility I get because there’s more times that you’re downloading and
all the SEO works and things like that. So yeah, that’s it. So if you can
help me out, I would be much appreciated. If you can, don’t worry about it. Thank you very much. Cheers, no, bye.
00:35:20,960 Well, it’s goodbye from me, Nigel Kreese, and it’s goodbye from him,
the Sunday lunch pm. Goodbye. ( huh? “Village of the World” by P.I )