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00:00:00,000 [Music] Hi and welcome to the Sunday Lunch Project Manager podcast
for Sunday the 26th of February 2023. This is your host Nigel Creaser and today we’ve got the second part of my
00:00:23,360 conversation with Stefan Wheatner about psychological safety. Enjoy! So what’s been going on this week? Not a great deal. Some podcasts
being set up. I’m looking now I’ve got something in the region of five interviews lined up over the next coming weeks.
00:00:57,520 So bang bang bang. So it takes us well into the year for bank episodes and a few more scheduled or two be scheduled. So lots of really
interesting guests, really interesting subjects. Some subjects I’ve not
even thought about before when I’ve been working through. So brilliant,
00:01:18,640 really enjoying the interviews at the moment. That’s really not a lot else
to say, really this last week or two. Had some half-term time and trip to Friends in Scotland which is was lovely last weekend and playing around with a few things with chat GPT with a few ideas
00:01:46,960 coming forward for other ways of helping and training with project management. So yeah keep an eye out on that. When I get a bit more
established with that I’ll probably let you know what’s going on there.
Interesting things. I’ve been listening to a podcast that a friend of mine shared with me,
00:02:06,080 socially distant sports bar podcast. Thank you boy, thank you Gary. And
they they’re listening to them and the way they have their podcast set
up and they’ve been talking about their Patreon subscribers and I’ve thought oh I haven’t refreshed mine. And then I checked today and I realised that having set
00:02:24,320 up the Patreon page I hadn’t pressed the go button on it. So for many many months I’ve been long time actually it’s now years. I’ve been pointed people at the Patreon page saying guys you can go there and you can contribute, buy me a coffee, help support the show etc.
00:02:43,280 And I’m guessing that anyone who has got an air has gone oh go find it.
But now hopefully having clicked the right button it is life. So I’ve set up
the Patreon page. I have a number of tears in that. If you at the lowest
level tier one which I think I’ve got as a dollar or something like that
00:03:06,800 or a pound which other way around you you look at it you will get a mention on the show. So that will hand my have my eternal gratitude
obviously. If you two pen a month you go to that we I will send you an e-version of when I were a project manager and again you will get a mention on the show
00:03:32,720 and you can see where this is going. Going forward now we’ve got the
next one which I call a grid. You’re going to mention in my next book an e-book an e-version of project management sketches and they cost my
things. Jump it up to ten pound. I will you will get a you’ll be mentioned in my new book
00:03:54,880 you will get a copy of each of my first two books and a right eternal
thanks again. And as you can see if you you’re very generous you want
to give 20 pound a month or 20 dollars a month I will send you a signed
copy of one of my books your choice ready and digital versions of all of my books.
00:04:21,280 I will also be adding something in there about the audio audio versions
soon as well. So there might be another tier row. I might drop into those
tiers. So if you do want a book show I would be really grateful and it would be helpful it would help me with maybe employing a few people to improve the
00:04:45,200 the quality and maybe use a little bit of marketing to get a bit more
reach on the show as well. Oh guys, sure that’s fine but it now it is
working so there you go. So there is who do want to do that anything is appreciated.
00:05:03,040 And that’s it really I’m going to leave you to listen to the same part of
the conversation with Stefan which I know you’re going to absolutely love. So look of yourself and speak to him. Yeah you reminded me of
something there and it’s kind of a little tangent in some ways but the
00:05:28,800 I saw something two or three weeks ago on it was LinkedIn post and it
talked about desk bombing. I don’t know if you’ve heard this phrase. Okay that’s new to me desk bombing. It was absolutely ludicrous. It
was but I think it’s probably related as well. There was someone who had
00:05:52,240 there was a conversation there having a conversation with someone
and asking them if they solved this problem or not I’ve written to them
and I’m waiting to them and well they’re only over there if you pop to see them and I’ve gone. Well I’m not going to desk bombing
00:06:05,120 and it kind of like well just going up to the desk and asking them there’s
desk bombing which to me I just I just sat down and what it just but I
wonder whether again that’s where that’s in that organization where that culture has come from or maybe that’s that individual. Is it the
00:06:30,160 going out the fear of going over to someone’s desk and saying have
you had chance to look at that mate which we wouldn’t I would see as a normal as I say walking around management by walking around or
even just any colleague you pop and do that’s a great way of doing it. It’s like ping someone
00:06:46,880 and I am but it seemed strange and I just wonder whether that’s from a
psychological safety point of you whether that’s something those trying
to drive those behaviors you talk about there and it’s the same in any
culture isn’t it because I heard the phrase around culture being you can have a really
00:07:04,080 strong culture in a team but that team may hate the whole of the rest of the organization and be a complete answer with the rest of the
organization but together they’re like they’re really solid, fantastic strong
culture in relationship but they may not feel valued they may not feel heard they may
00:07:21,920 not feel able to speak up as a team and some of these things all relate
there it’s kind of it’s by modelling those behaviors and I know you say about things being on the wall I’ve seen organizations where you’ve seen them on the wall where it used to be you know used to buy the posters
00:07:40,720 that had the picture of someone on a bicycle evolve or die or all these
different riding along a cliff edge or something like that which I thought
they were lovely pictures but actually when I look back now they were kind of a little bit tweed on what what don’t really do anything
00:07:54,880 anymore is very much I think out of the back of the 80s and 90s of the kind of macho kind of business approach but how do you how do you
how do you make sure that other people live in your values that you can be the CEO or that the head of your project and you might model 00:08:19,040 those values as you said day in day out but how do you how do you
make it trickle down well I think first of all Nigel that while you might
want to have a culture of say openness and transparency you can have pockets within your organization that operate differently that have
00:08:44,000 some different norms and and you know you talked about that desk bombing that that struck me as so interesting because desk bombing
seems like there’s a lot of value in being able to walk over to someone
and ask them the question and what’s the downside to it well maybe the downside in some
00:09:04,320 environments is that desk bombing is an incredible interruption and you
and so for an organization and maybe even more importantly for a team part of what we facilitate is a discussion around okay what are the norms and behaviors we want to have in this team that are congruent with the values of
00:09:24,560 the organization and I’ll give you another example one organization that was they sell products in big box stores and they’re basically the incumbent they’re the leading product so they already get maximum shelf space and arguably maximum volume of sales for all of their products and they’ve been
00:09:47,760 around a long time and their whole goal for growing the business is to
develop new products in particular products with some form of IP that
they can protect through trademarks or copyrights or even have patents
on so they have within this this broader organization which is really set up to
00:10:09,200 maintain and protect all of these brands that’s a risk of verse nature to
their overall business they have this rogue little new product design
office that has to interact with the broader organization and they’re kind
of this rogue office that’s experimenting trying new things and when they interact
00:10:30,960 with say the branding department those those branding departments
are super focused on protecting their existing brands making sure the
language is just right the imagery is consistent and so when this rogue
department is saying well we need to launch a quick website and we’re going to get some
00:10:49,600 user feedback and you know they’re like whoa team stop can’t do that
that’s way too risky right so you you’ll have conflicting perspectives on
risk taking for example within an organization your log team your legal team better have a very low tolerance for risk and then your new product
00:11:10,560 development teams better have a greater much greater tolerance for
risk and so you need to look at what works within your department what
works within your team that ideally is still consistent with the broader
corporate values that for example the the CEO is trying to model and lead with
00:11:33,360 that helpful Nigel yeah yeah very it draws to me a thought of I heard someone from a major airport talking and they talked about becoming an agile organization and being agile development and they talked
about the conflict that they had within their real organization where if you’ve got
00:11:55,200 a retailer a cost or a Starbucks or whatever it would be or W Smith or
Boots in the UK here they’re just in that sales area and if they have an
app to be able to order a coffee as you walk into a door or whatever
and for whatever reason that’s not working or the Wi-Fi in that little cafe isn’t working because
00:12:14,400 someone’s rolled out a new room to or something like that it’s not
material to it’s annoying it’s irritating people want to do quality but it’s
not massively so taking those risks to do those kind of things is fine but then they said but then with the baggage handling if the baggage handling system
00:12:32,800 stops the airport grinds to a halt so the controls over the baggage
system will like absolutely rigid no changes unless absolutely no kind of
thing so it kind of makes it I can understand those differences and I would thought about I suppose by having those two different approaches you’re going to get
00:12:54,880 different levels of psychological safety in there but different people
because in that sort of protective arena there’s going to be this is how
it’s done we’ll always do it that way that may be some some variant in
there but I wonder how do you do it in that sort of rigid arena where
00:13:16,560 you allow people to have that feel that safety and be able to talk at raise
issues and things that was that kind of just kind of conflating to things I
don’t think it’s conflating to things and what I’m hearing out of what
you’re saying is that maybe in that rigid environment you want to have
00:13:36,000 it’s okay to have less psychological safety I would argue that the
opposite is true so if the stakes are particularly high in any given team then you really need psychological safety if you’re on the baggage
handling team if something goes wrong you need to solve it quickly and efficiently
00:13:57,120 that requires kind of like an all hands on deck open communication let’s
figure this out together uh you know put our egos feck our egos at the
door and let’s solve this problem together and it makes me think of for
example the operating room and in the eminence done a lot of research
00:14:17,200 in medical environments and it’s proven to be incredibly necessary in
the operating room to have psychological safety even though you have power dynamics you have the surgeon who’s basically the project
manager or the leader and you have all of these other disciplines in the room and
00:14:37,920 nest the tis and nurses and etc etc and they all have to work together
and obviously when someone’s body is on the table under the operating
lights and the tools and everything that is a life or death situation and so
the stakes are incredibly high and and so I think psychological safety is
00:15:04,880 where it’s so if I’m if we’re going to answer the question where can you where do you need psychological safety and where is it okay to not
have psychological safety I guess I think there’s been a proliferation of the need for psychological safety in general in the last 30 years because of the speed at which
00:15:24,400 change is occurring right if you look at Moore’s law and you look at how much technology is being embraced you know when televisions first
came around it took what 12 years for 50% of the population to have a
television and how long did it take for 50% of the population to have a tiktok like
00:15:44,320 what 18 minutes or something something really ridiculous right yeah like 12 months or you know it’s it’s weeks and months not years
anymore and that’s that is wild right for the landscape to be changing that dramatically that quickly requires more and more psychological safety it requires more
00:16:04,640 collaboration and better what does psychological safety facilitate if
facilitates quality information so the more people feel like they can speak up and say what’s on their mind maybe a helpful metaphor here is that of the Titanic and an iceberg and when you’re what happened the Titanic obviously
00:16:27,840 hit that iceberg because all they could see was the very top of the
iceberg and they didn’t appreciate or see everything below the surface of the water now what psychological safety does is it pushes that iceberg above the surface so the issues are above the water and you can see them that helps you
00:16:45,040 navigate the water as much more successfully and you’re not driving
along with all of these hidden issues below the surface of the water and
as a project manager that’s critical right you need to have all all if you’re
going to make a decision if you’re going to make a call you better have all the best
00:17:02,640 information available to you at the time that you’re making that decision
yeah kind of in writing to you a couple of things there one then just as you said the project manager the the the status report I have a comment in one of my books lies down lies and status reports
00:17:19,520 it basically where you get the situation where that someone doesn’t feel they can be open and honest by changing the rag of a report to red
because red is seen as negative and it’s what you will get a lot more
reporting you’ll get a lot more shouted at and you will get more you’re doing it wrong
00:17:39,280 whereas actually what it should be in a psychologically safe
environment is I need some help I can’t solve this on my home own can
you come and help me and a lot of organizations don’t see that in that way and therefore people don’t change the bragg’s status of their project until the last
00:17:58,560 minute they can do when it’s too late to solve problem that kind of first
thing that that got from what you said there but the other thing is and it’s
really interesting thinking about the I’m sure it’s Tishiba and Tishiba
manufacturing approaches the lean manufacturing and all those sort of things
00:18:17,840 where the the idea that anyone on the line can stop the production line
at any time if something’s wrong and that goes to what you just said there about the fact that you’ve got the surgeons you’ve got it
someone’s going to be going there and need to just go and stop we’ve got this problem or a
00:18:34,880 nurses hang on what’s going to be because it’s that and feeling that that
is because you’re doing it for the reason that is to make sure that that
patient survives that the to be sure that the surgeon has seen it to be
you know all those different reasons you’d be doing it and the same for
00:18:53,360 the the factory where you’re building a car and someone says stop it’s
got the wrong headlight on or whatever you know it but rather than the
traditional thing of they outshout never stop the production it’s got to go
through it’s all about getting numbers through getting numbers through
00:19:09,840 getting numbers through and I was just I’m thinking because that was it
was that around the same sort of time well I’m not sure I’m just thinking about it because it’s been around a while that isn’t it the lean manufacturing idea and that idea of them doing that and maybe that was the 80s
00:19:26,560 and maybe that’s kind of come together at that same sort of time just I
think that yeah that work I think started in even in the earlier than that I think the six yes gosh I forget his name an American gentleman who spent a lot of time in in Japan yeah the name escapes me
00:19:48,960 anyway he was really looking at that whole lean manufacturing that was
really pioneered by by Toyota and I have an interesting story I can’t
remember if I read about it or heard about it on a podcast or listen to it
on the radio I don’t remember the source but there was an individual
00:20:05,920 who was working in North America for an auto manufacturer that was I
think purchased by Toyota or perhaps affiliated I can’t remember and the point is he went to Japan to learn about all the lean agile manufacturing processes and bring them back so he was trying to embrace and create
00:20:28,560 that culture within North America and as you mentioned thou shalt not
stop the production line was the key driving rule if you will within that
environment and so then they said they informed everybody on that line
if you see an issue you you must pull the line pull that cord to stop the
00:20:49,760 production line and what they did is they they taught they trained they
trained they trained then they watched they stood on the on the shop floor and they watched as issues arose and as as the dynamics
occurred and there was an individual that had an issue and you would not they would not stop the
00:21:07,600 production line and they had to go over physically grab the person’s
arm hold it onto the line and pull it with them or her I don’t remember if
it’s him or her and pull the damn line you know because there was such an ingrained message do not stop the production line right so it’s amazing how
00:21:28,000 powerful those norms are and and you need to overcome them right it’s
it’s not easy but it can be done and in that environment we all know the benefits right because if you produce a thousand cars in incredible
amount of time but every single one of them has an issue well think of the cost of
00:21:48,960 recalling it right we think of the the cost of retrofitting whatever bolt was
not on right and all it takes is one person stop that production line
readjust something it might only take five minutes maybe it takes five
hours but five hours is a whole lot less than all of the hours and time
00:22:06,880 that goes into retrofitting the error that could have been and should
have been caught much sooner yeah it’s it’s like with that that saving of time is like the way that some organizations are focused on their quarterly results don’t look at their longer term
00:22:24,480 relationships with their customers and only focus on those those three months and you can see the behaviors in organizations that have got
that and their financial accounts and all that sort of stuff to the to the to
the shareholders and all that sort of thing you can the the organizations that
00:22:41,920 behave is that ingrained thing of of its fear isn’t it it’s fundamentally fear
of drive some terrible behaviors or some very high quality short term
behaviors I think that’s a good way to put it yeah short term there’s short term benefit there right the way
00:23:08,720 Amy Emonson phrases that it’s it’s that look we’re always trying to manage our reputations and how we’re being perceived and and and
looked at and why don’t we put our hand up we can all relate to sitting
in a classroom teacher ask a question and there’s a reluctance to put your hand up and say
00:23:28,560 I have the answer or you have a reluctance to interrupt the teacher and ask a question well why is that well what happens to someone who
asks a question all the time others might perceive them as just being
annoying or being oppositional or or maybe you fear that the question you ask is going to be a
00:23:49,200 stupid question so you don’t want to come across as stupid and so
these are all strategies that we use to protect our reputations and it’s easy to manage because if you don’t ask a stupid question then you don’t concern yourself with having your reputation
00:24:07,040 seen poorly so all we do is say nothing that’s it yeah I do know why even at my age now I’ve been I’ve been in the in sort of commercial work now for 35 years even in recent days I’ve been on calls and comments and I had a few questions it’s better banter really but someone said something around
00:24:31,360 earlier he’d trust you still have a question at the end that kind of comment there was a couple comments made and even even now sort
of I’ve got a fair these thick skin at times and I’m kind of used to it and
and actually the banter is fine I know the person incredibly well but it still kind of
00:24:50,880 irked me and and made me feel like not asking a question again and it’s
quite interesting that that can make you feel like that is it’s as as an
individual even now and maybe even now is the thing is not the thing to say it’s just hard sometimes to get over those those issues
00:25:18,320 I think I lost my air from just my connection or your connection one of
the other let us down have we just lost you Stefan I can hear you can you hear me hello I can hear you Nigel can you hear me
00:26:04,960 hmm hello can you hear me could have had it seem to do on this one that hello can you hear me Nigel hello I’m gonna look
00:27:01,520 all right can you hear me now I hear how you doing I could hear you so I’m not sure what happened there but I thought well I’m just gonna leave and come back and hopefully that fixes it yeah because you
screen you froze for a bit when I was talking and then you disappeared so
00:27:18,800 yeah a little bit more editing I normally do then for this one Laura sod
sorry about that it’s not it’s not probably not your fault it might even be it
might be Riverside who knows this is only a second or third time I’ve used this so yeah it’s it’s pussy it’s the same we’re just
00:27:36,640 yeah there’s a it uploads as we go along so at the moment it’s showing
yours is 80% uploaded so it’s got its nickers in it with somewhere which
will be for people get up there eventually so yeah we just so we’ll come back in I’m trying to think of where we go from here
00:27:58,320 yeah I suppose we’ve got like 10 minutes or so or so so I’ll come in with
another question here so if I mark the clip here then I’ll know it’s there
so thinking about my audience specifically I do think of them very often they’ve got
00:28:18,720 project teams out there and they’re in a situation where they want to get
the best out of their project teams and they want to make sure and we
were going to talk about that in quote great resignation and losing team
members and you mentioned it earlier what what what couple of things
00:28:34,080 would you say actionable things that a PM could do to try and protect
themselves but also enable and foster that psychological safety within
their teams whether they be large small whatever we sold yeah well my first recommendation is for folks to really consider putting out
00:28:56,960 their antenna if you will to tune in to how your team is doing and more
specifically start to notice what actions what occurrences might cause one or more individuals within your team to decrease their sense of
psychological safety and start to notice what are some of those things
00:29:23,520 and and then do that for a little while and start to just tune in to folks
because remember back to that story I was telling of the individual who
was checking in with all of his team managers and it was by modal right
half of them said I don’t know how my team’s doing and the other half
00:29:41,360 said yeah they’re stressed and it’s causing me stress well you want to make sure that you’re the manager that knows what’s happening with your team members so there’s you’re closing the gap between what
they’re thinking and what they’re saying and so be attuned to what may be causing them
00:29:58,960 to hold back what might be causing them to you know be reluctant to
share or provide their input and and and that’s the start then the second
piece to that is once you start noticing something just get curious about it say hey Nigel I noticed that in our meeting it looked like maybe something
00:30:20,400 that Mary said might have upset you or or cost you to be a little bit
defensive there can you tell me more about that or am I misreading the
situation so just bring some curiosity to it and ask people and they’ll
hopefully tell you that’s cool really good advice and not not difficult either is it really
00:30:41,120 it’s just taking the time and thinking about it and being aware isn’t it well
and I think it’s it’s a sneaky little piece of homework if you will because I
think often especially if you’re really out come driven and just get the results you’ll forget about the human aspect of the people
00:30:58,480 on your team and you might just be focusing on okay well tell me the
project project status give me the update is it green or is it red and you you started touching on that where there’s maybe some hesitation to
admit that yeah you know what I’m falling behind and I’m going to say that right now
00:31:15,840 it’s it’s red the project is red I’m reluctant to maybe admit that but it is and so maybe you want to consider well how do you destigmatize
maybe you don’t want to use red and yellow and green colors to signify where you are with the project maybe you want to try something different in
00:31:35,120 fact that was on a panel discussion just last week with one of the
participants one of the panelists was from Cisco and what they’ve done
is they have they shifted the word from feedback to attention so as a
manager as a project manager for example your job is not necessarily to give people feedback
00:31:59,120 because feedback immediately puts people in the defensive instead of
just say hey we need to put some attention towards this so if you notice
something then just say hey let’s put some attention towards this issue
then it’s then we can talk about it it’s not it’s not framed as feedback so see
00:32:16,560 how framing something slightly different using different language can make a big difference just like changing the colors from maybe you
don’t use red green and yellow even though it’s a very logical system
that everybody understands it there might be too much stigma there so I feel a little bit long
00:32:31,840 winded there with my response and I hope that was no no no that’s
really insightful it gave me a couple of things to think about there one
one of which is actually could turn it on its head a little bit with project status and I’m based out asking my team why their project isn’t red rather than
00:32:50,960 them explaining why it is red or why it’s amber it’s kind of why isn’t it red
let’s assume every project’s not going to it’s going to fail it’s going to be
red why isn’t it red and that’s another way of thinking about it differently as an individual you can look at why isn’t my project red
00:33:04,720 well I’ve got good control here I’ve got good control here and kind of
change that around a little bit make that context switch which is really
and the feedback model again I go back to the manager tools they are vicious on the way that they describe feedback and the fact that feedback is
00:33:22,880 neither negative is both negative and positive and it’s something that as
a society I keep the phrase of the shit sandwich I’m sure you’ve heard
of where you go into someone saying yeah it’s seen that on advised on LinkedIn recently you’re shoes are nice you really rubbish
00:33:43,040 to do in that job or like your hair the what do you make that it just makes no sense it’s a case of contemporaneous when it happens as
soon as you can afterwards that presentation you just did was fab do keep them up like that that’s brilliant and if you give as much and actually there’s more
00:34:01,200 positive for most people to give feedback than there is negative so when it is negative it’s a small drop in the ocean compared to that because what we should be doing is reinforcing positive actions so
when people do something right brilliant great keep up do that again but we don’t we don’t
00:34:17,760 tend to we save up all of we save that up and occasionally write something at the end of a performance year and then sit someone
down as a big doom thing to give them feedback and sort of yeah it’s
just yeah it’s it’s hard and I’m not brilliant I try to be better at it but I think
00:34:35,280 yeah it’s a bit crazy I’m just looking now we’re coming up up on time
now and I’m really grateful for that time you’ve given me a hair stuff and
it’s been brilliant so some brilliant sight from the real thought-provoking stuff in there what is there anything that you would
00:34:51,280 last couple of things that you want to mention or is there you kind of
covered everything you want to cover? Well the main thing I would love
to invite and offer to your audience here Nigel is a free psychological safety assessment so we have we use the fearless organization scan psychological
00:35:15,040 safety scan to measure team psychological safety so if you’re curious
and you want to know what’s the level of psychological safety in your
team you can put those questions to rest and actually just measure it and we’d be happy to do that for you and the way you can find out about
00:35:32,560 that is go to Zorango Z-A-R-A-N-G-O dot com forward slash free PSI
PSI stands for psychological safety index so free PSI and I’d love to
connect with you I’d love to help you assess the psychological safety of
your team and then we’ll we would briefly debrief the results and then send your team away to
00:35:58,160 start fostering psychological safety to a greater extent I would love to do
that for you. Brilliant brilliant thank you for that so again thank you for
coming on the show if other other than Zorango if people want to get in touch with you find out more about your work
00:36:14,560 what’s the best way to get in touch? Search me up on LinkedIn I’m
relatively active there the URL to find me directly if you want to punch it
in is linkedin.com/in/sweedner so ask my first initial for my first name and then my last name
00:36:35,760 Weedner W-I-E-D any art and I would love to connect with you on cycle or on LinkedIn maintain some conversation there and and get to know
you a little bit more and all your other project manager friends so join my community I’d love that fantastic so again thank you very
00:36:55,920 much Stefan for coming on the show and have a fantastic rest of your
day you as well Nigel thank you for the opportunity really appreciate it brilliant thank you hopefully you really enjoyed that same pilot conversation with Stefan and you’re going to take
00:37:19,200 some of those at learning with you IoG jump on to Stefan’s website
have a look at what else he offers and yeah cool other than that I think
I’ll let you go have a great day bye so this is my final wrap-up every week you’re going to hear this you’re going to get bored of it
00:37:51,760 but you can always click next podcast if so if you have enjoyed it if
you’ve listened to this podcast the end of this show and you think that
was great I’d love to be able to help Nigel there are loads of ways you
can do it the first and obvious way is to share the podcast send out
00:38:15,360 to people if you if you know colleagues or friends who’ve benefit from it
think they’d enjoy it just send them the link grab one other link send or send them to www.NigelCriser.com/podcasts that’s
www.NigelCriser.com/podcasts and that’ll push them over to a link tree link and it’s got all of the
00:38:38,480 different ways they can consume the podcast if you are feeling generous and have a big bag of cash you could grab a copy of one of
my books obviously they’re available in all the usual places and print and and digital again jump on the website www.NigelCriser.com/shop and that will give you a list of all
00:39:05,200 the different ways that you can contribute and grab copies of the book
also got links to all my guests books on there as well where I get a little bit of a kickback from them if you are of a sporting mind I have a number through doing some of my judo and running antics I’ve managed to secure a few
00:39:31,360 affiliate links and affiliates there as well so in there somewhere in the
sponsors page there’s links to those as well so clicking on to those and
grabbing your if you’re with it if you’re looking to get super fit then that
would be fabulous as well I get a little kickback from those I have a Patreon
00:39:51,200 account it’s patreon.com/sundaylunchpm so again you can ping
something in there by me a coffee or whatever and finally obviously the most important is coming back coming back listen again because the
more of you than come back the more visibility I get because there’s more times
00:40:13,920 that you’re downloading and all the SEO works and things like that so
yeah that’s it so if you can help me out I would be much appreciated if you can don’t worry about it thank you very much cheers no bye
00:40:31,040 well it’s goodbye from me Nigel Kreese and it’s goodbye from him the Sunday lunch pm goodbye